IP/IT/? and actual fighting

[somatai]

I meant jin

[GrahamB]

Presumably, hitting a punch bag is solo training, since it's not a 2 man drill, that doesn't involve hitting the air?

[JAB]

No, you are hitting a bag by definition!

Ask a boxer how much shadow boxing has improved his POWER.

[somatai]

No, you are hitting a bag by definition!

Ask a boxer how much shadow boxing has improved his POWER.

agreed, but shadow boxing is not the same animal at all......it is not similar to the exercises and intent that I am talking about

[I am...]

From my viewpoint, solo training can develop power and structure and all that, if done intelligently. Past a certain point however those skills are then developed to a much deeper level by adding another human being into the progression. In my personal training I don't see them as exclusive, but perhaps as different tiers in a progression. One needs time to learn how to move, but one also needs to test that movement in less than ideal conditions with some variables beyond their control if they wish to take a skill past a certain point.

What might take a person, working solo only, 10 years to achieve, may be achieved in much less time, and potentially to a greater depth, if they introduce partner work and resistance into the equation. The key is getting the right level so one can flesh out their method instead of losing faith in it and falling back on something one has more confidence in.

[shawnsegler]

You also need to take into account that there are different attributes being trained at different levels of intensity.

Push hands is not sparring, but they both have their place and teach different things. So to with form work. And they all inform each other.

S

[kshurika]

Imagine how red my face is! I saw Tim today. He said that by training forms, nei gong, etc. you can develop the alignment, relaxation, balance, rhythm etc. etc. etc. that result in the development of jing. However, he said that you can't ISSUE fa jing into the air. Something needs to receive it.

I stand corrected. Do I get some points at least for admitting it?

[somatai]

yes you do in my book, cheers for the candor.

[johnwang]

Have we learned from the past that Fajin is not everything? Whether you can Fajin on an object or just in the thin air will have no match to somone who trains with partner daily. old Chinese saying said, "3 yeas in Chuan has no match with 1 year in SC." You will get more benefit from your partner training in 1 year than from your solo training in 3 years.

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In the tournament, Cao Yanhai (a student of the Central Guoshu Institute who eventually placed fourth) met the iron palm master Liu Gaosheng. Liu Gaosheng was famous in Shanghai for his mastery of iron palm and Ziranmen (Natural Gate); he was the head trainer of security guards for Shanghai’s 4 largest department stores and had close to 3,000 students, and was one of the favourites to win the tournament. Liu was not only a master of iron palm, he was also adept at hard qigong. Meeting such a tough opponent in the first round put Cao under pressure. At the beginning of the bout, Liu immediately launched a palm strike at Cao. Cao took the strike, thinking to gauge Liu’s power, only to find that half his body went numb – he could barely withstand it! Fortunately,Cao was calm under pressure and didn’t crumble. He took a deep breath, shook himself and hurriedly changed his tactics. Instead of taking Liu on head-on, Cao evaded as much as possible, trying to use sweeps and low kicks to attack Liu’s legs. This tactic helped Cao to go on the offensive. In the second round, Cao saw his opportunity and laid Liu out with a punch, winning the match. The next day, Zhao asked Liu how he could have lost: Liu was so vexed he punched the ground, breaking a brick in half, saying “Dammit, dammit”.

Purely from looking at the results, Liu Gaosheng’s gongfu was no match for Cao Yanhai; but Cao Yanhai could not split a brick – how can we explain this result? The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. Thus, one should not mistake hard qigong for combat skill. In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder.

[D_Glenn]

However, he said that you can't ISSUE fa jing into the air. Something needs to receive it.

There is a ton of video showing people 'fajin/fali' into the air - from the dantian out through hands, fists, palms, elbows, shoulders, etc.

So what you must be telling us is that in a tediously technical definition of 'fajin' - that you can't really dissipate your own qi/jin into the air?


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[D_Glenn]

"No amount of solo training will ever teach anyone how to fight, this was never the intended purpose of solo practice. Fighting can only be learned by fighting, or at least by close approximations."

I didn't read the other forum/topic but that is true. Although people who've never been in a fight come up with some pretty ridiculous "close approximations", so that part is questionable.

"It's interesting that perhaps the vast majority of martial arts practitioners don't realize the specific "martial" exercises, "kata" or "forms" they practice are no more useful for developing martial skills in general than correctly practiced yoga or "nei gong" or many other body work systems."

IMAs are in the minority and in them the "martial exercises" are "nei gong" so that's true as well.


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[kshurika]

"There is a ton of video showing people 'fajin/fali' into the air - from the dantian out through hands, fists, palms, elbows, shoulders, etc."

There is? Can you see the fajin coming out into the air? Sounds cool. I'd like a link.


"So what you must be telling us is that in a tediously technical definition of 'fajin' - that you can't really dissipate your own qi/jin into the air?"

Huh?

[D_Glenn]

"There is? Can you see the fajin coming out into the air?"

I don't know what you think fajin is, and I hope you're not some sort of dragonball z weirdo who thinks it's some visible blast.

So, not without reservations, here's a clip with various demonstrations of actual fajin, done in the air, solo, not into a bag or person:





I hope that you can tell the difference between when he's using his whole spine to 'fa'/emit and when he's just moving normally? Or do I have to point that out?


.

[kshurika]

Pretty good clip. Thanks for posting. It might even be real. Chen Yu seems to possess real skill and he really kicked some ass on that air. His students seemed eager to cooperate with his techniques. I'm not just being an asshole here. That clip didn't show me much. Now, if he'd only knock out Fedor!


I'm not a dragonball z weirdo, but it sounds like something I'd be interested in. Where can I sign up?

[Frazetta]

Imagine how red my face is! I saw Tim today. He said that by training forms, nei gong, etc. you can develop the alignment, relaxation, balance, rhythm etc. etc. etc. that result in the development of jing. However, he said that you can't ISSUE fa jing into the air. Something needs to receive it.
I stand corrected. Do I get some points at least for admitting it?

You don't get any points for arguing so vehemently your own teacher's view points when you were ignorant about what they were (which might or might not be the case with other students of his on this board). But shouting ignorance is commonplace, and is really the norm (I'm sure I'm as guilty as anyone). BTW, just because Tim or anyone else says something, doesn't make it the gospel. I'd question Tim's input/direction with the same vigor that Strawdog or others seem to question the IS ideas (among others) or those that espouse them.

You get a whole sack of points for being honest to everyone when you don't really have to...that's character.