IP/IT/? and actual fighting

[jss]

Tim's comment is within a context. What he means is that you can master the art of making a sword...but that has little to pretty much nothing to do with mastering its use.

And his comment is as sloppy as your analogy. I get the whole "body work is forging the body like a sword"-thing, but consider the following. To make a sword you work with forge, hammer, and anvil; to master the sword you use the sword itself. Yet both for body work and fighting, you work with your body.

[Josealb]

Kid, lets try a different analogy. You are to Tim Cartmell, in martial skill, fighting experience, and bodywork understanding what a guppy is to a white shark in regards to seal hunting.

I share his opinion because i understand it, not because he has a reputation. I also understand you a bit, considering your aikido backround. Cheers.

[jss]

Kid, lets try a different analogy. You are to Tim Cartmell, in martial skill, fighting experience, and bodywork understanding what a guppy is to a white shark in regards to seal hunting.

I share his opinion because i understand it, not because he has a reputation. I also understand you a bit, considering your aikido backround. Cheers.

LOL. You give up too easily.

[JAB]

Who invited the Troll?

[DeusTrismegistus]

Since when is disagreeing make someone a troll?

Anyways I agree to an extent. Forms train body skills but they are also a place to practice technique.

[jss]

Who invited the Troll?

I'm sorry. Apparently I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. But lesson learned, I'll never criticize one of Tim Cartmell's comments again...

[Josealb]

Geez man...listen. disagreeing with Tim's opinion, or anybody like him, does NOT make you a troll, And me and other people do not just agree with him because hes Tim.

Lets have another round at it ok? I think i overreacted. I dont take back the aikido comment, though.

Forging the body gives you skill. You can certainly use this skill when you fight. But its not fighting skill, per se. Tim means that the best way possible to polish fighting skill, is by fighting (interacting, 2 men drills, live sparring, etc). Some people just do forms and solo work, and assume and swear by it that it will hold under pressure when interacting.

[jss]

I dont take back the aikido comment, though.

And I'm not asking you to! If my aikido background didn't show, it would mean I didn't learn a thing from it.

Tim means that the best way possible to polish fighting skill, is by fighting (interacting, 2 men drills, live sparring, etc). Some people just do forms and solo work, and assume and swear by it that it will hold under pressure when interacting.

And I don't disagree with that. One thing that bugged me about Tim's comment is that he casually dumped koryu kata training and Tai Chi forms in the same category. Those are two very different animals.
Secondly, I was hoping that everyone accepted the fact that if you want to count on some skill in a fight, you need to pressure test it. And that means we don't have to keep stressing that point at the expense of kata/forms/... training. (Of course, it's a different story as long as it is true that "Some people just do forms and solo work, and assume and swear by it that it will hold under pressure when interacting.")
You know, in the end there are only two questions to ask about any type of training: What's the goal of the training? And why is this type of training the best way to achieve it?

[strawdog]

One thing that bugged me about Tim's comment is that he casually dumped koryu kata training and Tai Chi forms in the same category.

Where did he do that? Nothing in the statement that Graham posted said anything like that. Don't add in what you're assuming.

[BruceP]

Don't add in what you're assuming.

Yes. Let's never do that...

[Bodywork]

One thing that bugged me about Tim's comment is that he casually dumped koryu kata training and Tai Chi forms in the same category.

Where did he do that? Nothing in the statement that Graham posted said anything like that. Don't add in what you're assuming.

Yes he did. He commented on Kata or form training in a post addressing Me and Ark, therefore he inadverently commented on our trainng. It's the reason one of the guys said the reply was "sloppy."
Tim was only speaking of his own understanding and experience in Kata and forms. He isn't qualified or informed enough to speak about what others do. In my case we use the principles of kata training in a live environment; sometimes with armor, sometimes not. I would be more than happy to demonstrate what our kata practice with weapons can deliver in a live environment; twin sticks, knife, sword, stick whatever. Tim, being experienced, I would assume the best; that he would revisit and expand on that reply were he given the opportunity.

Interesting thread over on Shen Wu on the relation of IT (I'm talking about Sigman/Harden/Ark, et al) to actual fighting:

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/2 ... #POST31016

I like the quote from Tim:

"...Every kind of traditional training properly organized and practiced was designed to do exactly what you found, improve the practitioners physical attributes in a specific manner. No amount of solo training will ever teach anyone how to fight, this was never the intended purpose of solo practice. Fighting can only be learned by fighting, or at least by close approximations.

It's interesting that perhaps the vast majority of martial arts practitioners don't realize the specific "martial" exercises, "kata" or "forms" they practice are no more useful for developing martial skills in general than correctly practiced yoga or "nei gong" or many other body work systems." - TC

I find this to be more miscommunication.
Of the three of those mentioned; Harden, Ark and Sigman. Sigman is the only one who has not fought with it.
Both Ark and I have.
For me, beyond the years of wrestling, judo, boxing, jujutsu, and generally doing MMA before there was MMA- I have the background of real life fighting with the scars and x-rays to prove it; including being on the wrong of a knife more than once, Let’s add to that a comment of Tim’s I’d very much like to address; that is that all Kata and Forms are no good. All MA are transmitted by kata or drills. There are those of us who have used Koryu weapons kata in freestyle training in armor to pressure test it and have broken bones in the practice. Add to that cross training those principles in twin sticks and knife training. I think it best to discuss what you do, not what others do whom you do not know.
Ark competed in Sanda, which is closer to real fighting than pure BJJ, but most don't know he has some serious behind the scenes experiences of his own in nasty places.
I enjoy BBJers and roll with them, but I find any endeavor where I can't hit and kick to be unrealistic.
Tim does BJJ. BJJ isn't fighting, it's wrestling. I hear he' very good at it. Good for him.

Body skills
The body skills I train and the methods I use to train them are tailor made to build power for fighting; that being; kicking, punching, throwing, and groundwork.
I disagree with Tim’s comments that "this" (meaning our training) type of power building isn't any more useful for fighting than Yoga. But there's no point in arguing though. He himself goes on to admit he doesn't know what we do for power building.
So what he basically said is that his stuff isn't that useful for fighting so he stopped doing it.

Fighting
If you do not, or have not fought, then you simply don't know how to fight. No amount of Kata, or forms will ever get you there. In fact many I have seen will do more harm than good. And some of it is pure nonsense. But nonsense comes in all shapes and sizes doesn't it? Case in point BJJ:
Most wrestlers have enjoyed taking men to the ground looong before you kids saw it on the Tee Vee. We knew what was going to happen as we had been doing it ourselves many times. BJJs proved to be far more sophisticated and they drew in a large number of wrestlers to re-tune their game. But.....next came the bad boys who could hit like nobodies business. Once they learned the ground game and how to avoid it, they brought their own game to the mix. Hence...MMA. So, past the hubris or the latest fads, so often displayed on the internet (largely do to ignorance) there is another point that needs to be stressed here in regards to fighting. The closest to fighting you are going to get is in MMA not BJJ. If all you've done is BJJ, than you haven't really fought yet...not really. The truest axium of fighing is "Everyone has a plan, till they've been hit."
You have a few surprises in store for you if you face people who have a broader range of skills available to them. Once someone learns your game, they learn to stop your game, and bring their own.

Internals and MMA
I suppose the real thrust of the debate is about internals in the fighting arts. That's not a discussion you're going to be able to have with just anyone. Most men a) don't really know how to fight and haven't fought and b) most don't know methods for effectively training internals let alone how to make use of them for use in a fight. Combining the two into one topic sort of narrows the field.
Fight training is fight training. Conditioning methods differ. External training is the quicker method to learn. So go do it.

Hubris, works fine in the Martial arts. It doesn't belong in a discussion about fighting.
Good luck in your training
Dan

[GrahamB]

Let’s add to that a comment of Tim’s I’d very much like to address; that is that all Kata and Forms are no good.

Interesting - because I didn't read it like that. I read it as saying they are as good as "neikung" or "yoga" for developing body skills. Not that they were no good?

I disagree with Tim’s comments that "this" (meaning our training) type of power building isn't any more useful for fighting than Yoga. But there's no point in arguing though. He himself goes on to admit he doesn't know what we do for power building.
So what he basically said is that his stuff isn't that useful for fighting so he stopped doing it.

Yeah, that was a better way to say it.

[Fubo]

I enjoy BBJers and roll with them, but I find any endeavor where I can't hit and kick to be unrealistic.
Tim does BJJ. BJJ isn't fighting, it's wrestling. I hear he' very good at it. Good for him.

Tim is also a San Da champion, and from what I hear has experience in "Da Streetz". I'd consider grappling and wrestling to be one portion of fighting, just as I'd consider striking and kicking to be another.

[kshurika]

Tim regards forms training as just what the name implies - "formal" training. It will not make you a great fighter. In his words "You don't develop jing by hitting the air". Fighting against an opponent might. Why then does Tim have his private Xing Yi students learn, practice and perfect all of the forms (Wu Xing, Wu Xing linking, animals, animals linking, two-person forms, Hu Bao Tuo, etc.)? The greatest importance of forms is to develop rhythm and softness. Rhythm will win a fight for you. Just yesterday, he described to me how (as a BJJ blue belt) he defeated a much more experienced (and meaner) brown belt by reverting to the softness he'd developed over years of IMA training. Learning pi quan takes minutes. Learning to use it smoothly, softly and calmly against someone who's trying to imbed your teeth in a wall takes years.

As a yoga teacher, I know that Tim wasn't saying that yoga training will make you just as good a fighter as XY forms training will. I know that the only good yoga (and there's very, very little of it in the West) is yoga that develops rhythm and softness - both in asana and pranayama. To ignore these important elements gets you a knee or hip replacement (both epidemics in the yoga world). To ignore it in martial arts gets your ass pounded into the pavement. And, yes, despite what the current crop of celebrity yogarobics instructors are showing, hatha yoga is an "internal" art.

If I've misrepresented Tim's position, I'll probably pay for it tomorrow at Shen Wu. Wish me luck.

[I'lls cappuccino]

kshurika that may be true for tim's xingyi (you dont develop jing by hiting air, forms are for rhythm and softness) but that is not the case for all xing yi .