Strong Legs

[ChiBelly]

IMO, if you contemplate ancient philosophies and it doesn't cause you to create a new drill / exercise (or modify an existing one), then it's useless for your gongfu.

I hope this doesn't cause anybody to squirm.

[ashe]

The OP was BTDT as hell. This shoulda been moved a long time ago already.

[Scott P. Phillips]

Bailewen, I'm glad you want to read the Laozi in the original. There are over 2000 commentaries on it because it is very old language and since about the first century it has needed commentaries to be correctly understood. The fact that you can still read it at all is do to the massive influence of those commentaries on spoken and written Chinese. An influence which has kept them at the center of culture and cosmology.
Honestly, you can talk to any scholar of Daoism and they will tell you about the centrality of the historic Tianshi tradition, which is the source of these precepts. The importance of these Precepts is not in question by any historian that I am aware of. http://books.google.com/books?id=qngJspoY3TMC&lpg=PP1&dq=early%20daoist%20scriptures&pg=PA49#v=onepage&q=&f=false

We were talking about the actual text of Chapter 3 of the Laozi because you brought it up, but yes I did link to the entire Commentary which does include the original text. But I linked there hoping you would see the precepts that accompany the Commentary by Zhang Lu, (which I now realize were not there). However I did link to Bokenkamp's translation of them, where you will see the second precept is Practice Weakness.

By linking there I had no, absolutely no, intention to debate the meaning of the Laozi. If that's what you want. I'm done.

Here is Doc Stier's post (thanks) form the Huainanzi (the labeling isn't clear on the website but this is from the Preamble of the Huainanzi, attributed to Liu An (a prince), it is the Early Han Dynasty's most sacred Daoist text:

"Those who embody the teachings of Tao are quiet and easy, yet meet with no impediments.
Pliant in action, they can yet be firm; yielding, they can yet be strong; adapting themselves to circumstances as they change, they still hold fast to the fundamental part of the Doctrine, and are able to effect great things by small means.

When those who are said to be strong in action encounter changes of fortune, or meet with sudden emergencies, or find themselves compelled to prepare for misfortune, or to ward off troubles, their strength is never inadequate, and their antagonists are invariably scattered. Adapting themselves to the transmutations of nature, they choose their times for action, and therefore they are invulnerable.

Therefore, those who wish to preserve their resolution, must maintain it by means of gentleness; and those who wish to preserve their force, must guard it by means of weakness. When gentleness is persevered, it will lead to resolution. When weakness is persevered, it will lead to strength. It is possible to foretell the future well-being or woe of any given person, by watching to see what his constant practice is.

Force can only be successful in combating what is weaker than itself. It cannot overcome anything which is equally strong. But weakness can overcome what is far stronger than itself. The strength of weakness cannot be estimated!

Thus, when soldiers are fierce, they will eventually be annihilated. When wood is hard, it will be easily snapped in two. When the skin of a drum is hard, it will soon crack. The teeth, which are stronger and harder than the tongue, decay first. Therefore, weakness constitutes the substance of life, and strength is associated with death."

Hung Lieh Chuan by Huai-Nan Tzu
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/ttx/ttx09.htm

[Daniel]

What's with quoting laozi anyway? He had some nifty ideas, but was he even a martial artist?

I agree with the point that MA and IMA can become obsessed with creating stronger legs, which of course isn´t useful, that just means you´re stuck on a level in the training and can´t quite shift out of it. That you need good leg-strength, connections, structure, spine-connections, liuhe, connective tissue/tendon-work, stable lower jiao, a kang that is alive, songkua, the shift-points in the feet, the ankle-connections and the deeper liuhe between toes, legs and hands and arms, and the ability to change smoothly and fast in the legs etc. is a bit of a given.

Hi Daniel,

I'm trying to work on most things in that list, but what do these mean?

-stable lower jiao
-a kang that is alive
-the shift-points in the feet
-the deeper liuhe between toes

Any clarification would be appreciated

This thread has a very well-deserved place in BTDT, but if you´re still reading it, Ian, here´s a brief answer.

Stable lower jiao - complex, really, but including a lot of the leg-work, stabilizing your lower dantian and linking it to your feet, stabilizing the health in your legs, lower back, buttocks, kua, etc.

The kang is usually referred to more in Chen than in the other arts, but it should be in all three even if in slightly different fashion. It´s the arc you create on the inside of the legs, including how you open from the huiyin, how you open the connective tissue on the inside of the legs down to the insides of the feet, how you open the yin-channels on the inside of the legs, and how you start utilizing bows in your legs, both on the inside and the outside. The kang is also crucial to give you ability to twist and do chanzijing in your legs, as well as use the four energies in energetic form in them, either for leg-attacks, defences, stomps, tears, rakes or throws.

There are several ways of using different points in the feet for shifting power-vectors and change in your body. These are also used in different ways to increase your movement-speed either while closing the gap or for increased power attacking and defending and shifting between them. They should be in all three arts too, they´re just used in different fashion in the three. These points are also connected for use in chanzijing/louxuanjing.

Well, the deeper liuhe between toes and fingers, to be precise. Even though the liuhe start out as very crude links, they should become finer down to millimeters in the long run, including links from each toe to each finger. This is an end-result: there is a progression of links you work through first.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[bailewen]

Bailewen, I'm glad you want to read the Laozi in the original.

It's not that I want to read it in the original. It's that I actually do read it in the original. I can nearly recite the first 10 chapters or so by heart. Sometimes I just need a little prompting like being reminded what it just the first character of the line.

There are over 2000 commentaries on it because it is very old language and since about the first century it has needed commentaries to be correctly understood. The fact that you can still read it at all is do to the massive influence of those commentaries on spoken and written Chinese.

No. Not really. The fact that I can still read it at all has far more do to with my BA in Chinese Language and Literature. The only commentaries I need are generally in the footnotes of my Chinese copy of the Dao De Jing and are simply editors notes on classical Chinese in general. I have not studied any of the classical commentaries on the text.

And yes, I saw the precepts. I guess I scanned it too quickly. You are obviously referring to precept number 2. "Practice flexibility and weakness".

I also admit I didn't quite realize what the Chinese text from Xianger was. I see it now. Interesting. Definitely worth a read. I hate reading on the screen but it looks like a pretty wonderful text. I'm slightly embarrassed I didn't understand the context the first time around. I'll go and look for it at the bookstore ASAP.

I think you have actually made your point. As usual, you've overstated it as daoism is not the only, or even the most influential, philosophical school in Chinese culture but it is certainly a large influence so . . .interesting reading.

Take care.

[Ian]

This thread has a very well-deserved place in BTDT, but if you´re still reading it, Ian, here´s a brief answer.

Stable lower jiao - complex, really, but including a lot of the leg-work, stabilizing your lower dantian and linking it to your feet, stabilizing the health in your legs, lower back, buttocks, kua, etc.

The kang is usually referred to more in Chen than in the other arts, but it should be in all three even if in slightly different fashion. It´s the arc you create on the inside of the legs, including how you open from the huiyin, how you open the connective tissue on the inside of the legs down to the insides of the feet, how you open the yin-channels on the inside of the legs, and how you start utilizing bows in your legs, both on the inside and the outside. The kang is also crucial to give you ability to twist and do chanzijing in your legs, as well as use the four energies in energetic form in them, either for leg-attacks, defences, stomps, tears, rakes or throws.

There are several ways of using different points in the feet for shifting power-vectors and change in your body. These are also used in different ways to increase your movement-speed either while closing the gap or for increased power attacking and defending and shifting between them. They should be in all three arts too, they´re just used in different fashion in the three. These points are also connected for use in chanzijing/louxuanjing.

Well, the deeper liuhe between toes and fingers, to be precise. Even though the liuhe start out as very crude links, they should become finer down to millimeters in the long run, including links from each toe to each finger. This is an end-result: there is a progression of links you work through first.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

Thanks!

I know some of those concepts, and others are completely new. Something extra to work on now

[josh]

Wow, I had ignored this thread as, from the title, I was expecting another one of those recurring discussions on the value of holding Mabu, etc. Now I discover that you all have been geeking out on Daoism and I totally missed it
One of the things that I find really interesting about reading the commentaries on Laozi is that each one is like reading a whole different work. So, Han Fei (not really a line-by-line commentary) treats it as a work of Legalist governance, Xiang'er presents it as a kind of devotional text, Heshang Gong interprets it as a treatise on bodily cultivation and breath control, and Wang Bi established the dominant perception of the Laozi as a work of mystical philosophy. There is one commentary that is not too well known, but which might have some bearing on this discussion, which is Wang Zhen's Tang-era commentary, included in the Ming Daoist canon, called Daode jing lunbing yaoyi shu 道德經論兵要義述 - Explanation of the Essential Meaning of the Discussion of Military [Tactics] in the Daode jing. So I thought I'd look for some references to concepts of "weakness" in that one. The translations below are far from perfect
In his introduction, Wang Zhen explains his understanding of the purpose behind the text:
伏惟道君降於殷之末代,征伐出於諸侯,當其時王已失眾正之道也久矣,且不得指斥而言,故極論沖虛不爭之道,柔弱自卑之德以戒之。
The Lord of the Dao [Laozi] descended in the latter era of the Yin [Shang] dynasty, and set about targeting the various feudal lords. At that time, the kings had already long departed from the correct Dao of ruling the people; and yet, [Laozi] could not criticize them directly. Therefore, in order to admonish them, he extensively detailed the Dao of simplicity, emptiness, and non-contention, and the virtues of softness, weakness, and self-deprecation.

Commentary on chapter 3
弱其志者,謙柔不犯於外也。強其骨者,堅固有備於內也。常使人無知無欲者,蓋率身以正人,故使夫智者亦不敢為也,故此下文云為無為者,直是戒其人君無為兵戰之事也。語曰舜何為哉,恭己正南面而已,若人君皆能如舜之德,則天下安得不治矣,故曰為無為則無不治矣。
...'Weakening their ambition' means to be humble and soft [gentle?], not engaging in aggression outside [one's borders, presumably]. ‘Strengthening their bones' means to be firm, stable, and prepared within. 'Constantly causing them to be without knowledge and desire' means to conduct oneself as a model of virtue, thus one 'keeps those who have knowledge from daring to act.' The following statement about 'engaging in non-action' is directly warning the ruler against engaging in warlike activity. Thus it is said [in the Analects]: 'What action did Shun take? He simply restrained himself with modesty, and faced South.' If the ruler can emulate the virtue of Shun, then how could order not be attained in the world? Therefore, the text says 'engaging in non-action, there is nothing that is not brought into order.’

on chapter 33
故曰能成霸王者,必得勝者也。能得勝者,必強者也。能強者,必能用人力者也。能用人力者,必得人心也。能得人心者,必自得者也。能自得者,必柔弱者也。故強大者有道,則不戰而克,小弱者有道,則不爭而得。
...Therefore, it is said that to rule over all, one must attain victory; to attain victory, one must be strong. To be strong, one must be able to use others' strength; to use others' strength, one must be able to win their hearts. To win others' hearts, one must master oneself. To master oneself, one must be gentle and weak. Therefore, when those who are great and strong possess the Dao, they conquer without battle; when those who are small and weak possess the Dao, they gain without struggle....

on chapter 36
故下文云柔弱勝剛強,此亦非謂使柔弱之徒必能制勝剛強之敵,直指言王侯者已處剛強之地,宜存柔克之心耳。故謙卑儉約,即永享其年。驕亢奢淫,即自遺其咎,蓋物理之恆也。聖人猶恐不悟,下文又切戒之日..魚不可脫於淵,魚喻眾庶也,淵喻道德也。夫王者理人,當須置之仁壽之域,使魚在深水之中,常無困涸網罟之患,則獲其安樂矣。又先王耀德不觀兵,兵者國之利器也,固不可以示見於人,兵者戰而不用,存而不廢之物,唯當備守於內,不可窮黜於外者也。若示人於外,終有敗績之辱,豈不慎哉。
...The text next says that 'Softness and weakness can overcome hardness and strength'; it is not the case that this statement means that one who is soft and weak can necessarily defeat a hard, strong enemy. It simply points out that kings and warlords are already in a position of hardness and strength; thus, it is beneficial for them to maintain the mindset of 'victory through softness.' Therefore, if one is modest and frugal, they will enjoy a long life; if one is arrogant and extravagant, he brings infamy upon himself. This seems like a constant principle. The Sage [Laozi] was worried that people would still not understand, so he went on to say, 'Fish should not be removed from the depths.' Here, fish represents the common people, and the depths represent the Dao and its virtue. In regulating his people, a king should establish them in humanity and longevity. This is like letting the fish remain in the depths, without having to worry about drying up or the fisherman's net, allowing it to attain a pleasurable existence. Also, the former kings displayed virtue and not military might. The military is the 'sharp tool of the state,' therefore it cannot be displayed before others. Armies are a thing that should not be used in battle, but should be maintained without fault. They are only suitable for holding and fortifying within [the borders], and not for sending out beyond [the borders]. If you display [your military might] to others, in the end you will suffer the humiliation of defeat - one must indeed be cautious!

chapter 40:
又柔弱者道之用,言聖人必用柔弱之道以勝天下強暴之人也。
'Softness and weakness are the functions of the Dao' means that the sage must use the Dao of softness and weakness to overcome those people of the world who are strong and aggressive.

chapter 55:
又生生滋益,乃謂之祥,言君人者當宜日自損,戒其身心,必令柔弱慈哀,不能使氣任力,故為強梁。《傳》日..一鼓作氣,再而衰,三而竭,明其使氣者不可久也。又強者為壯,壯者則老,師老為曲,義亦在茲,故戒之早止,令勿復行也。
Also, to try to add to life is called inauspicious; this means that the ruler should strive for daily loss, guarding his body and mind, and causing them to be soft and supple, compassionate and sympathetic. He must not exert his qi and give rein to his strength, and thereby become overbearing and tyrannical. The Zuozhuan says, 'With the first beat of the war drum, they gather their qi; with the second, it begins to decline; with the third, it is exhausted." This explains that one must not prolongedly exert one's qi. Also, to be strong is to be in one's prime; to be in one's prime means that old age is inevitable. When a general gets old they may bend [not sure about this line]; this [passage] also carries that meaning. Therefore, it warns us to stop [such behavior] early, and not let it recur.

chapter 76:
此章又極言柔弱之用,指陳生死之徒。臣愚竊稽其深意,都在於兵強則不勝之義。又下文云..木強則折。強大處下，柔弱處上。者,蓋又切戒其兵強之患也。何者,夫兵者所謂凶險之器,斗爭之具,所觸之境,與敵對者也。故兵強則主不憂,主不憂則將驕,將驕則卒暴。夫以不憂之君御驕將,以驕將臨暴卒,且敗覆之不暇,何勝敵之有哉。故夏商之衰,以百萬之師而傾四海,始皇之末,以一統之業而喪九州,項羽忽霸而遽亡,新莽既篡而旋滅,苻堅狼狽於准上,隋煬分崩於楚宮,此數家之兵,皆多至數兆,少猶數億,無不自恃其成以取其敗,此皆強則不勝之明驗也。又兵者求勝非難,持勝其難。唯有道之君然後能持勝,向數君之敗,皆由不能持勝之過也,豈不信哉。
This chapter also exhaustively describes the usefulness of softness and weakness, elucidating it in terms of life and death. When I stupidly ponder its deep meaning, it seems to be the idea that a strong army will not be victorious. The text further says, 'A tree that is strong will be chopped down; the strong and great are lesser, while the soft and weak are greater.' This also probably refers to the dangers of a strong army. How is this? Weapons are said to be tools of ill omen, instruments of conflict; where they come into contact, one faces off against the enemy[?]. Therefore, when the army is strong, the ruler has no concern; when the ruler has no concern, the generals become arrogant; when the generals become arrogant, the troops become violent. When an unconcerned ruler controls a proud general, and a proud general commands violent troops, they have no time [to worry about] defeat and rebellion - how can they be victorious then? Therefore, in the declining years of the Xia and Shang dynasties, they had millions of troops yet lost all within the four seas. Towards the end of Qin Shihuang's reign, he united the realm yet was defeated in all nine provinces. Xiang Yu rose to power and lost it just as quickly; Wang Mang usurped the throne and was quickly exterminated; Fu Jian was trapped on the Huai river, and Emperor Yang of Sui came to his end in the palace of Chu. The armies of such leaders as these, at their largest numbered in the billions, and at the smallest numbered in the millions. All of them were defeated due to their success. These are all clear examples of the fact that strong [armies] are not victorious. In warfare, it is not difficult to gain victory; it is difficult to maintain victory. Only those rulers who possess the Dao can maintain their victory; the defeat of those previously mentioned rulers was in all cases due to the fact that they could not maintain their victory. Who could deny this?

Anyway, there's more, but you get the picture. Just thought it would be interesting to introduce an interpretation of the Laozi that is intended to have some direct bearing on combat, although not quite the kind of MA-related combat that is being discussed here.

[BruceP]

Thanks very much, Josh.

[I-mon]

Love your work Josh, it's always a privilege to read.

[edededed]

Awesome Josh, those commentaries are quite interesting (and I am glad that you are reading the classical Chinese, not me) They sound quite reasonable, too, but I guess the others would sound reasonable on their part as well.

[josh]

thanks guys - my pleasure although if i had been paying attention to the dates on people's posts, i would have realized that this discussion already ended about a week ago

[cdobe]

Li Yiyu, nephew of Wu Yuxiang, obviously thought that you need strong thighs before shen and yi can enter the bones

from
《走架打手行功要言》李亦畬

欲要神气收敛入骨，先安两股前节有力，两肩松开，气向下沉。

[Strange]

heady stuff, cdobe....
i personally find "lengthening" the thigh muscle add extra snap to my beng
cheers