Strong Legs

[ChiBelly]

Agreed! your focusing in on this point a little too much maybe. My point about the Arch was that it is a 'strong' shape for its purpose. Look at the architecture around the world still standing due to Arches ... the Colosseum in rome for instance. So strength in the structural sense is there for its purpose.

Oh, I saw your point and wasn't disagreeing - I think the material strength of the organs in the leg matter too. But I am trying to say you still need a good deal of muscular strength to hold an arc even within Scott's narrow definition, and the more you have once your shape is correct, the more stable your arc.

IMO, it's the essence of the point. Structure and material strength alone is not good enough. You need raw muscular strength to maintain a structure when in reality you are dealing with dynamic forces from many directions.

[Chris Fleming]

"Johnwang, thanks for that picture, I'd never seen that sort of shuijiao leg exercise with weights. The throw you linked to, however, does not require such training."

Scott, feel free to enter a shuai jiao competition any time and show us how it is done.

[Patrick]

Saying A and non A at the same time, wrapped in beautiful words, may sound very deep, but it has no information value.

"Life after death"; "True strength is weakness" "Invest in loss"

[ChiBelly]

A strong leg should not have smooth surface but have the shape of individual muscle. You should be able to see each individual muscle in a nice long shape instead of like GongLi's smooth lady's leg or bulky man's leg. It should have unsmooth surface instead, like hills next to hills with deep trenches in between.

If someone is fat, they can have the hills and trenches underneath, but it won't be visible and the leg will instead look thick.

Generally, women have higher bodyfat then men, so GongLi could in theory have some hills and deep trenches, but you wouldn't know unless you felt for yourself.

[johnwang]

The throw you linked to, however, does not require such training.

It does.

Generally, women have higher bodyfat then men, so GongLi could in theory have some hills and deep trenches, but you wouldn't know unless you felt for yourself.

I didn't feel her trenches last time I touched her leg.

[ChiBelly]

Generally, women have higher bodyfat then men, so GongLi could in theory have some hills and deep trenches, but you wouldn't know unless you felt for yourself.

I didn't feel her trenches last time I touched her leg.

I feel bad for you.

[Areios]

IMO, it's the essence of the point. Structure and material strength alone is not good enough. You need raw muscular strength to maintain a structure when in reality you are dealing with dynamic forces from many directions.

I was waiting for this. I realy like to add that muscular strenght also helps when you are in bad positions. Shenfa is not always 100% realible or archivaible.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Strong does not mean big, big does not necessarily mean strong, and small does not mean weak. It is well known that hypertrophy (increased muscle size) does increase strength. However to induce hypertrophy people train to failure and lift in the 12-15 rep range. However the best increases in strength occur at the 4-8 rep range and not lifting to failure, this doesn't cause much muscle mass increase. Also there are different types of strength as has been already addressed. However the best way to increase strength endurance is to increase max strength, mind you this does not mean muscle size. Basically the stronger a muscle is the less effort is required for the same effect. Gymnasts are extremely strong but they do not have the large muscles that bodybuilders develop.

Now in regards to cultivating weakness. My opinion is that this doesn't relate to actual weakness but the feeling of weakness. Often the position that feels strongest is weaker than the position that feels weak. This is because people equate strong with muscle use so the position that uses the most muscle to move or maintain feels strong because there is more effort. The position that is actually stronger feels weaker because it requires less effort for the same effect. So developing weakness means abandoning the idea of perceived strength and instead using the positions of perceived weakness. It also means not relying on the strength of the limbs but learning to relax the limbs so they can be free to move. This feels weak to most people but allows the energy to transfer from the torso to the limbs. Similarly with stances you must learn to hold them with the least amount of effort. The more you feel like you are not exerting yourself in a stance the stronger it is. By relaxing and being weak in the muscle we gain strength through alignment and structure, unless we cultivate weakness this is not going to be felt. We also have more potential energy as the more flexed a muscle is to maintain a position the less room it has to explode to produce force for a strike, so by maintaining a position with the minimal tension we gain more power, this is enhanced by the stronger our muscles are, a stronger muscle will require less flexion to maintain the same force, or a stronger muscle can relax more.

The problem arises with people who are muscularly strong is that they have more trouble not using that muscular strength. This makes these skills harder to learn. This is why IMO many women learn faster than men.

Genetics also make a big difference in what muscle size people actually have. I have 28" thighs. When I took that measurement I hadn't lifted weights in years and hadn't even done physical labor in years, martial arts was my only exercise. I am the kind of person that can look at my legs funny and they will grow. They will never be small. My dad's legs are the same way. I would die of starvation before I had small legs. I have friends who are the opposite and do squats and calf raises and nothing will really help their legs grow.

Now as to natural strength. In our day and age this is a complete misnomer. The body is designed to move and be active. We live sitting on couches, sitting in cars, sitting at desks, sitting on the bus, sitting at dinner, and with chair backs too. A person who works doing manual physical labor daily is much stronger overall than just about anyone who doesn't. Now consider that we have tools that make even our hardest physical labor look easy compared to what it would take to live as the ancient humans did. Its ridiculous to say that we are anywhere near our natural strength without training for it. We aren't living a lifestyle to realize that natural strength.

[BruceP]

I've never done this kind of training


But I've spiked dudes in competition with that lift. I attribute it to torturous sessions of swallow and rhino. It got easier after John told me to bend my knee. That extra inch of reserve in the knee allows for a nice pop at the top of the lift - even without raising the heel.

rhino


swallow


The 'rhino' and 'swallow' postures I learned aren't the same as those of the 13 tai bao. They're from the shuai-chiao training one of my old tai chi teachers practiced.

[Patrick]

IMO, it's the essence of the point. Structure and material strength alone is not good enough. You need raw muscular strength to maintain a structure when in reality you are dealing with dynamic forces from many directions

.

+1

@DeusTrismegistus
+1

[Doc Stier]

Johnwang, thanks for that picture, I'd never seen that sort of shuijiao leg exercise with weights. The throw you linked to, however, does not require such training.

I am making the case that internal martial arts were heavily influenced, by design, by the wide spread notion in Chinese culture that cultivating weakness was a virtue.

Scott:

What a hoot! LOL

I have never personally seen you demonstrate Shuai-Chiao techniques, so I can't really say what your skill level may be with those methods, but I have seen John Wang demonstrate his Shuai-Chiao techniques in numerous Masters Demos at various Chinese martial arts competitions. In any case, I seriously doubt that you know more about the subtleties of Shuai-Chiao than John does.

Additionally, you seem to misunderstand and misinterpret the concept of cultivating weakness as a virtue. I was taught that this has more to do with cultivating a non-aggressive and non-threatening personal presence, as well as a good humored attitude with an outwardly calm degree of self-control around other people, essentially maintaining a low public profile, so to speak. It doesn't refer to cultivating literal weakness of any kind.

Some people, men interacting with other men in particular, tend to misinterpret these personal attributes in another man, and will thus underestimate him, often mistaking his centered personal appearance and attitude as a sign of physical and mental weakness, which they assume is probably based upon a fear of confrontation and the inability to address physical conflict with confidence or competence.

Such mistakes can be quite costly for the overconfident aggressor!

[ChiBelly]

Now in regards to cultivating weakness. My opinion is that this doesn't relate to actual weakness but the feeling of weakness. Often the position that feels strongest is weaker than the position that feels weak. This is because people equate strong with muscle use so the position that uses the most muscle to move or maintain feels strong because there is more effort. The position that is actually stronger feels weaker because it requires less effort for the same effect.

Maybe some of this is just semantics:

Main Entry: weak
Pronunciation: \ˈwēk\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English weike, from Old Norse veikr; akin to Old English wīcan to yield, Greek eikein to give way, Sanskrit vijate he speeds, flees
Date: 14th century
1 : lacking strength: as a : deficient in physical vigor : feeble, debilitated b : not able to sustain or exert much weight, pressure, or strain c : not able to resist external force or withstand attack d : easily upset or nauseated <a weak stomach>
2 a : mentally or intellectually deficient b : not firmly decided : vacillating c : resulting from or indicating lack of judgment or discernment d : not able to withstand temptation or persuasion <the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak>
3 : not factually grounded or logically presented <a weak argument>
4 a : not able to function properly <weak eyes> b (1) : lacking skill or proficiency <tutoring for weaker students> (2) : indicative of a lack of skill or aptitude <history was my weakest subject> c : wanting in vigor of expression or effect <a weak translation of the poem>
5 a : deficient in the usual or required ingredients : dilute <weak coffee> b : lacking normal intensity or potency <a weak radio signal> <a weak strain of virus>

It seems to me that you're defining weakness as 5a, where the feeling of effort is the deficient ingredient. Scott seems to be referring to 1b. In IMA, I'd refer to 5a as "softness" rather than "weakness."

[Patrick]

It doesnt make sense either.

Cultivation of softness(only). Lets see how you can withstand a throw by only beeing soft.

A:What if I pull your arm with full force.
B: I just be soft, because my teacher said I must cultivate weakness.

Upps there goes your arm.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Now in regards to cultivating weakness. My opinion is that this doesn't relate to actual weakness but the feeling of weakness. Often the position that feels strongest is weaker than the position that feels weak. This is because people equate strong with muscle use so the position that uses the most muscle to move or maintain feels strong because there is more effort. The position that is actually stronger feels weaker because it requires less effort for the same effect.

Maybe some of this is just semantics:

Main Entry: weak
Pronunciation: \ˈwēk\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English weike, from Old Norse veikr; akin to Old English wīcan to yield, Greek eikein to give way, Sanskrit vijate he speeds, flees
Date: 14th century
1 : lacking strength: as a : deficient in physical vigor : feeble, debilitated b : not able to sustain or exert much weight, pressure, or strain c : not able to resist external force or withstand attack d : easily upset or nauseated <a weak stomach>
2 a : mentally or intellectually deficient b : not firmly decided : vacillating c : resulting from or indicating lack of judgment or discernment d : not able to withstand temptation or persuasion <the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak>
3 : not factually grounded or logically presented <a weak argument>
4 a : not able to function properly <weak eyes> b (1) : lacking skill or proficiency <tutoring for weaker students> (2) : indicative of a lack of skill or aptitude <history was my weakest subject> c : wanting in vigor of expression or effect <a weak translation of the poem>
5 a : deficient in the usual or required ingredients : dilute <weak coffee> b : lacking normal intensity or potency <a weak radio signal> <a weak strain of virus>

It seems to me that you're defining weakness as 5a, where the feeling of effort is the deficient ingredient. Scott seems to be referring to 1b. In IMA, I'd refer to 5a as "softness" rather than "weakness."

I am kind of using both. I am saying what people perceive as being 1 can actually be the stronger position because of a confusion of muscular exertion with strength. As Pavel says "strength is a skill".

[ChiBelly]

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