Cheuk Fung on Yi Chuan

[everything]

I am holding the camera and I just bounced these six lovely ladies off me, then took the pic. Not bad, eh?

you have incredible skill but why would you bounce them away? we're a little worried about you now.

[GrahamB]

[ChiBelly]

Our bouncing and push hands practice can look pretty dramatic if your not clear as to what is being trained and why.
I've been studying Yi Chuan for about 10 years now.

Ten years is a lot of time and money to invest (or waste). There are enough members of this board who've experienced to the full spectrum of IMA, from the real thing to quackery, to be able to recognize which is which, so I wouldn't take their opinions lightly, especially if they don't jibe with your own perceptions.

It's far more important for you to keep an open and critical mind than the board members, since it's your investment.

[BruceP]

I've seen and felt, first hand, what is being shown (portrayed?) in those clips. I can't say that what the yi chuan guys are doing is genuine or authentic or whatever, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand until I've actually felt, or not felt it.

At the end of the day, it's about finding what makes you happy and working hard at it. If it isn't hurting anyone else, who cares?

-edit-
sans mudballs

[Ian]

I find the mud-slinging in this thread much more disheartening than the clip...

[BruceP]

You're right about the mud-slinging, Ian

Apologies

[jjy5016]

Those of you who think that what Master Fung is doing is bullshit ought to go to his school and challenge him if you have the balls.

Bear in mind that the hows and whats of this type of training are different when used in fighting.

Cheuk Fung is legit and worked hard to get to his level of skill.

Regardless of his website, video clips and whatever you've seen or heard about him he is respected by his yiquan and hop gar peers for his dedication to the practice and his attainments. All your criticisms and ignorant comments can not take that away from him.

[Ba-men]

Our bouncing and push hands practice can look pretty dramatic if your not clear as to what is being trained and why.
I've been studying Yi Chuan for about 10 years now.

Ten years is a lot of time and money to invest (or waste). There are enough members of this board who've experienced to the full spectrum of IMA, from the real thing to quackery, to be able to recognize which is which, so I wouldn't take their opinions lightly, especially if they don't jibe with your own perceptions.

It's far more important for you to keep an open and critical mind than the board members, since it's your investment.

This is the best post on this matter..and should be used as the last word...on it.

[Ron Panunto]

Those of you who think that what Master Fung is doing is bullshit ought to go to his school and challenge him if you have the balls.

Bear in mind that the hows and whats of this type of training are different when used in fighting.

Cheuk Fung is legit and worked hard to get to his level of skill.

Regardless of his website, video clips and whatever you've seen or heard about him he is respected by his yiquan and hop gar peers for his dedication to the practice and his attainments. All your criticisms and ignorant comments can not take that away from him.

I have no doubt that he has considerable skill, but that does not excuse him for teaching his students to act like idiots.

[yichuan]

Funny how one mans trash is another's treasure....or like my teacher likes to say...if there is no laughter there is no truth:

Student: What about the bouncer? How does bouncing the opponent away translate into self defense ability for the bouncer?
Master Fung: Bouncing let's you practice using force at various angles safely. Assuming your partner knows how to properly receive the force you can use a lot of strength in the technique without worrying too much about hurting him. More importantly there is feedback. When Hunyuan strength is used with the proper distance, leverage and timing the opponent flies away. If done well it actually looks fake. So in push hands we are constantly refining and training the Hunyuan strength, challenging ourselves and getting used to working physically with our partners. We start by testing the various basic postures with various angles and timing. We then work on gaining success while moving and begin to practice with stepping. Eventually, we practice spontaneously and even competitively to continue to build our skill.

Student: I still don't understand how bouncing helps me learn how to actually hurt someone like I would need to in a self-defense situation. In other words, how do I go from bounce to hit or throw?
Master Fung: Now I see the question you're asking. There is another saying...a throw is an extension of a hit and a hit is a condensation of a throw. Now, a bounce is really just a type of throw where the defender lands on his feet. Change the angle a little or add a twist and it becomes a throw that forces them off their feet, preferably in a way that hurts when they hit the ground. A hit is a condensation of a bounce meaning the entire orbit that it took to execute the throw is concentrated into a small space to become a hit, therefore the hit is backed up by the whole body just as the throw is. Eventually you blur the lines all together and throw with a hit and hit with a throw.

Student: So bouncing and push hands are helping us learn to hit and throw at the same time?
Master Fung: Yes, but not just hit or throw. Parry, dodge, block, break or whatever....all just expressions of the frame and orbit, expression of the Hunyuan strength. Like they say in that spaghetti sauce commercial....'It's all in there'. On the outside it looks like I'm just standing there waving my arms around. But inside I'm dodging and blocking, striking and weaving...changing spontaneously to the situation as it unfolds. In Yi Chuan we try an go beyond technique, beyond the concept and understand at the experiential level. Tai Chi Grandmaster Yang Cheng Fu said "Practice the rule that you learned, absorb the rule, and separate from the rule, but the rule is already within."

Student: Why do we bounce using parts of your body that would normally not be contact points in a fight? Also, what is the purpose of bouncing more than one person at a time?
Master Fung: To test and appreciate Hunyuan strength. Bouncing someone from your back or leg, bouncing two or more people simultaneously simply demonstrates the roundness of Hunyuan strength. Its not that you are necessarily going to hit people with those parts of your body. The point is to see if you are using the required type of strength, namely Hunyuan strength. The old saying is your hands are not your hands and your whole body is your hands. This means with Hunyuan strength any point on the body should be able to absorb and discharge strength. To test whether or not Hunyuan strength is being properly used we use progressively more difficult angles and even multiple opponents. By constantly challenging ourselves in this manner we improve our precision, timing and distance in using Hunyuan strength.

Student: Does using Hunyuan strength guarantee victory in a fight?
Master Fung: Of course not. A fight is a fight....hopefully your training pays off and you will be able to use Hunyuan strength to your defense but there is no guarantee. Have you trained to the point where Hunyuan strength is your natural reaction? Are you able to use it with the distance and timing needed for self defense? With Hunyuan strength just a little gesture here or there and its the end, you know what I mean? So, while Hunyuan strength is no guarantee it certainly is an advantage.

from http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/push-hands/

[Interloper]

It's not the demonstrator I have any issues with, and having felt great IMA power as well as generated a fair amount myself, I agree with those who say it has to be felt in-person.

Rather, and as stated before, my concerns are with those who are being demonstrated on; having been bounced by high-level power, IME the experience of being bounced is not quite as dramatic as what is being portrayed in the yichuan videos. That leaves me to conclude that the recipients of the power are adding their own movements. Whether it's because of trained response, or the desire to increase the drama of what is being videotaped, I can't say. But I do believe it detracts from the credibility of the demonstration, regardless of how powerful the demonstrator is.

Beyond that, I have to reiterate that a truer test and demonstration of skill would be with the partner using his own internal skills to resist to his full ability. IMO, it's much more telling and more impressive in the longrun.

[Wanderingdragon]

It is quite obvious that many of these such demos are pure quackery, but if you understand the concept and principles behind such demos you will be able to recognize the genuine article. Still these types of demonstrations never translate well on video, it looks like so much magic, and one is inclined to say, as has been evident in this thread "yeah right !". As a training method and test of Structure, Center, And Strength, as Interloper stated one must feel it and one must work it.

[Muad'dib]

There is always the possibility of the fact that the internal power you felt and have been bounced by is not as high as that possessed by Cheuk Fung.

The times when I have bounced an individual, an ability I note that I no longer possess, the observers told me it looked like the person in question had jumped himself. Since the bouncee had never been exposed to IMA at all himself in any fashion, the likelihood that it was trained or dramatized is minimal.

Though I pointed out the Sam Chin and Akuzawa clips tongue in cheek, you can see a minimal level in the Sam Chin clip where his victim also appears to be bending his legs and slightly heightening the effect. This does not mean I think that Mr. Chin's students are also hypnotized, merely that we may be confusing cause and effect.

[Interloper]

There is always the possibility of the fact that the internal power you felt and have been bounced by is not as high as that possessed by Cheuk Fung.

That is always possible, but in this case, doubtful.

The times when I have bounced an individual, an ability I note that I no longer possess, the observers told me it looked like the person in question had jumped himself. Since the bouncee had never been exposed to IMA at all himself in any fashion, the likelihood that it was trained or dramatized is minimal.

Though I pointed out the Sam Chin and Akuzawa clips tongue in cheek, you can see a minimal level in the Sam Chin clip where his victim also appears to be bending his legs and slightly heightening the effect. This does not mean I think that Mr. Chin's students are also hypnotized, merely that we may be confusing cause and effect.

I am looking at some of the the trajectories, body movements upon landing, arm-hand flourishes and other small signs that hint at embellishment, conscious or unconscious.

[Ron Panunto]

Funny how one mans trash is another's treasure....or like my teacher likes to say...if there is no laughter there is no truth:

Student: What about the bouncer? How does bouncing the opponent away translate into self defense ability for the bouncer?
Master Fung: Bouncing let's you practice using force at various angles safely. Assuming your partner knows how to properly receive the force you can use a lot of strength in the technique without worrying too much about hurting him. More importantly there is feedback. When Hunyuan strength is used with the proper distance, leverage and timing the opponent flies away. If done well it actually looks fake. So in push hands we are constantly refining and training the Hunyuan strength, challenging ourselves and getting used to working physically with our partners. We start by testing the various basic postures with various angles and timing. We then work on gaining success while moving and begin to practice with stepping. Eventually, we practice spontaneously and even competitively to continue to build our skill.

Student: I still don't understand how bouncing helps me learn how to actually hurt someone like I would need to in a self-defense situation. In other words, how do I go from bounce to hit or throw?
Master Fung: Now I see the question you're asking. There is another saying...a throw is an extension of a hit and a hit is a condensation of a throw. Now, a bounce is really just a type of throw where the defender lands on his feet. Change the angle a little or add a twist and it becomes a throw that forces them off their feet, preferably in a way that hurts when they hit the ground. A hit is a condensation of a bounce meaning the entire orbit that it took to execute the throw is concentrated into a small space to become a hit, therefore the hit is backed up by the whole body just as the throw is. Eventually you blur the lines all together and throw with a hit and hit with a throw.

Student: So bouncing and push hands are helping us learn to hit and throw at the same time?
Master Fung: Yes, but not just hit or throw. Parry, dodge, block, break or whatever....all just expressions of the frame and orbit, expression of the Hunyuan strength. Like they say in that spaghetti sauce commercial....'It's all in there'. On the outside it looks like I'm just standing there waving my arms around. But inside I'm dodging and blocking, striking and weaving...changing spontaneously to the situation as it unfolds. In Yi Chuan we try an go beyond technique, beyond the concept and understand at the experiential level. Tai Chi Grandmaster Yang Cheng Fu said "Practice the rule that you learned, absorb the rule, and separate from the rule, but the rule is already within."

Student: Why do we bounce using parts of your body that would normally not be contact points in a fight? Also, what is the purpose of bouncing more than one person at a time?
Master Fung: To test and appreciate Hunyuan strength. Bouncing someone from your back or leg, bouncing two or more people simultaneously simply demonstrates the roundness of Hunyuan strength. Its not that you are necessarily going to hit people with those parts of your body. The point is to see if you are using the required type of strength, namely Hunyuan strength. The old saying is your hands are not your hands and your whole body is your hands. This means with Hunyuan strength any point on the body should be able to absorb and discharge strength. To test whether or not Hunyuan strength is being properly used we use progressively more difficult angles and even multiple opponents. By constantly challenging ourselves in this manner we improve our precision, timing and distance in using Hunyuan strength.

Student: Does using Hunyuan strength guarantee victory in a fight?
Master Fung: Of course not. A fight is a fight....hopefully your training pays off and you will be able to use Hunyuan strength to your defense but there is no guarantee. Have you trained to the point where Hunyuan strength is your natural reaction? Are you able to use it with the distance and timing needed for self defense? With Hunyuan strength just a little gesture here or there and its the end, you know what I mean? So, while Hunyuan strength is no guarantee it certainly is an advantage.

from http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/push-hands/

That still doesn't explain why the students bounce away when Fung hasn't even touched them.