open letter to jake...

[ashe]

i offered the caveat about it not being a challenge match because it seemed like a few guys might be getting the wrong idea (you know how it is around here)

$200 is the base price, which if your a member of the ILC organization that drops dramatically from there, but my point was one of value for the dollar amount charged. i certainly didn't expect you to drop everything and become an ILC student, it's obvious that your heart in in BJJ and has been for some time now, but the fact is that your fairly well known and public statements (like this, or this) by you that
either imply or explicitly state that he's not worth the price of admission could certainly dissuade folks from coming to workshops who might otherwise, and that after all, is my Sifu's "rice bowl".

so again, i would like (at some point then) to have the opportunity to change your mind. as i said i certainly wouldn't expect that you would "jump on the band wagon" but a statement like "he's very skilled, and that skill is transferable, but it's just not for me and/or i can't afford it" (which believe me i can relate) is very different than "he's over priced".

but also in a general sense, i feel very disappointed, in the CMA community in general, but also in some of the comments that you have made.

wude.

as CMA peeps we should ALL have the decency to not be breaking others rice bowls. case in point, when i board member sent me a link to EVERY SINGLE instructional video steve cotter ever made on sendspace i thanked him kindly but refused and deleted the PM. i wouldn't break his (cotter's) rice bowl.

when the video of Tim (one of YOUR teachers) that was posted was pointed out to the admins, it was ME who locked it and the admin team unilaterally agreed that we shouldn't be supporting video piracy of CMA teachers. why? we respect their rice bowls.

if the CMA community won't support itself then we are doomed.

[Daniel]

wude.

+1


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[D_Glenn]

Actually I lie.... Tim taught for 10 hours in Portland, I believe the weekend was $100. So there you have it.

That works out to $10.00 dollars an hour. Sounds right in line with the other CMA guys.

$200 dollars for a 2 day seminar. I'm almost positive any right-minded promoter will let you go to one 8 hour day for $100 dollars. And that $12.50 per hour is still way cheaper than $50.00 per hour.

I don't see anything unreasonable about the CMA seminar prices no matter what city you live in.


.

[GrahamB]

It's also worth noting that in the big scheme of things the difference between $100 and $200 is not that great. Go train Big Mind(tm) with Genpo Roshi and you're looking at $20,000 for the experience. A lot of these spiritual groups won't think twice about charging thousands to get enlightenment from the master. The scary thing is some people must be paying for this nonsense. Compare that to paying $250 for a weekend of actual real martial arts training!

[cerebus]

It's also worth noting that in the big scheme of things the difference between $100 and $200 is not that great. Go train Big Mind(tm) with Genpo Roshi and you're looking at $20,000 for the experience. A lot of these spiritual groups won't think twice about charging thousands to get enlightenment from the master. The scary thing is some people must be paying for this nonsense. Compare that to paying $250 for a weekend of actual real martial arts training!

Damn. I'm in the wrong business...

[GrahamB]

It's also worth noting that in the big scheme of things the difference between $100 and $200 is not that great. Go train Big Mind(tm) with Genpo Roshi and you're looking at $20,000 for the experience. A lot of these spiritual groups won't think twice about charging thousands to get enlightenment from the master. The scary thing is some people must be paying for this nonsense. Compare that to paying $250 for a weekend of actual real martial arts training!

Damn. I'm in the wrong business...

Hell yes!

Look at this:

5 places, each paying $25,000 for 6 days....

http://www.bigmind.org/BigHeartCircle.html

One of the events in March is already full... that's $125,000.

You couldn't make this up....

[johnwang]

I just paid $580 for 1 and 1/2 day of work to fix the roof of my Gazebo. I believe the material was $180 and $400 was the labor. Please don't tell me that our CMA guy's time have less value than the roofing guy. The day that we can make more money by wash dishes than teaching CMA, the day that we should all get a rope, find a quite place, and hang ourselves.

[bailewen]

The difference is that you paid for "private roofing". He only fixed your roof. At a martial arts seminar, if only 10 people show up for Graham's example, the instructor collected $2500 for that day. Did your roofing guy fix 10 people's roofs on that day or just one?

I think that $250 for a day of private training would be an excellent deal....one I could never afford but an excellent deal nevertheless.

$250 per student at a seminar that had 2 dozen students is completely different. If there are people out there who can afford it then that's really cool and I am glad that it's possible to make (for 2 dozen students @ $250 ea.) $5500 for just a day or twos work, let's be generous and say a whole weekend because the dude had to fly out and stay in a motel somewhere...so take out a generous $1500 for expenses. That still leaves $4000 for just working the weekend.

Hardly the same category of income as a roofing guy.

[Franklin]

I just paid $580 for 1 and 1/2 day of work to fix the roof of my Gazebo. I believe the material was $180 and $400 was the labor. Please don't tell me that our CMA guy's time have less value than the roofing guy. The day that we can make more money by wash dishes than teaching CMA, the day that we should all get a rope, find a quite place, and hang ourselves.

just quoted for truth....

and also if you teach martial arts most of the classes will be going on at times that would conflict with the high paying dish washing jobs

we just can't win...

franklin

[Michael]

This is like offering a full scholarship to Bart Simpson.

[Chris Fleming]

ok

if you really believe that the venue will not handle the price- maybe it would be better to contact the promoters (or poster of the information) by PM- and give them the low down on the situation through your eyes
seems to me you would make more friends that way.... and come off less like your goal is to break people's rice bowls


Franklin
ps-
my opinion is that people can charge what they want
i have had teachers that taught me for free and others that i had to pay
everyone has to eat-

End of story.

[ashe]

The difference is that you paid for "private roofing". He only fixed your roof. At a martial arts seminar, if only 10 people show up for Graham's example, the instructor collected $2500 for that day. Did your roofing guy fix 10 people's roofs on that day or just one?

I think that $250 for a day of private training would be an excellent deal....one I could never afford but an excellent deal nevertheless.

$250 per student at a seminar that had 2 dozen students is completely different. If there are people out there who can afford it then that's really cool and I am glad that it's possible to make (for 2 dozen students @ $250 ea.) $5500 for just a day or twos work, let's be generous and say a whole weekend because the dude had to fly out and stay in a motel somewhere...so take out a generous $1500 for expenses. That still leaves $4000 for just working the weekend.

Hardly the same category of income as a roofing guy.

the math doesn't quite work out that way.

unless you live directly in the area, a weekend seminar is more like at least four days work, if not five, not counting all the hours spent promoting before hand as well as the cost of the venue, etc.

again in our case, there are discounts available to ILC members compared to the general public, so not everybody is paying $200.

if you live in say new york, and are giving a workshop in Paris, you need to book your flight for Wednesday to give yourself extra time in case a flight is canceled, you've got a full 8+ hour day of traveling and then the same on the way back, so all of that time has to be factored in to considering the total cost of a workshop. at the minimum your away from home from Thursday through Monday, you have to eat while your out, which is going to be about $20 or $30 a day by the time you pay airport prices for 3 meals, plus the cost of meals out during the course of the weekend, so probably a minimum of $100 just for food, plus anywhere from $400-600 for airfare, and hotel stay for four nights at $100 a whack.

in most cases whoever is organizing and promoting the workshop needs a portion of the proceeds to cover the cost of fliers, advertising, and time, providing transportation, etc. and that can be anywhere from 20-40%.

a workshop venue can be outrageously expensive. up to $600 a day in some cases, and then there's all the little things that add up quick like making sure the venue is stocked with bottled water, snacks, etc.

that's a minimum outlay of around $1500 for the weekend and possibly $2700 if the organizer has to rent space.

[bailewen]

...so take out a generous $1500 for expenses.....

...the math doesn't quite work out that way. ..

...that's a minimum outlay of around $1500 for the weekend and possibly $2700 if the organizer has to rent space.

Not quite but apparently not that far off either.

Obviously a New York to Paris thing is going to cost a fair bit more than New Mexico to LA and in my hypothetical example I was thinking that most all the seminar's I had seen (not attended, can't afford those things) were generally hosted by some school that went out of their way to invite the dude so there was not renting of the space involved. My Shifu's flight from China to Germany was probably close to a grand but you can get from NY to LA for less than $500 and LA to SF for less than $100.

Wasn't my main point anyways which is that John's comment which compared $250 for a weekend of martial arts to $400 or so for a weekend of roof repair isn't fair because a successful seminar has lots of students. I'd be curious how many people typically show up for one of Tim's $100 affairs. He might be making a tidy bundle at that price.

[Bodywork]

I think determining "what's worth what"... is a matter of priorities. Personally I wouldn't cross the street to learn yet another jujutsu technique; others feel the same about traditional arts.
As far as choices and rates:
I am all for internal training/ conditioning for MMA these days and I charge $180.00 and have no trouble with total strangers in new areas...unadvertized.

[mrtoes]

I believe in the market setting the proper rate. What's with trashing people because you don't like their fees or don't feel their material is of interest to you? Just don't go.

In the examples given, the profit that is made per day is in any case substantially lower than the daily rate of many of my colleagues in the IT industry, and I'm not talking about the ones working for investment banks, either. Face it, CMA is simply not a big wage earner, even for those with world famous reputations.

Matthew.