open letter to jake...

[ashe]

so as not to derail the wu style topic in events.

ashe
As with you I am entitled to my opinion. Last time I checked you did not show up to anything of "mine" so I am not sure if you know 100% what you are talking about. As I stated worth is subjective. It was obviously worth it for you to fly 2000 miles to portland for your teacher, but it was never "worth" it for you to drive 500 when I lived in NM to train so.....

that just sounds like sour grapes.

a) i don't think you were still living in NM by the time i started posting here
b) i NEVER attend other peoples workshops for several reasons
1) budget
2) time - i'd rather be really good at ILC, so any extra time for training should go into that. not touring somebody else's system that i'll never work on again after the weekend is over. or just picking up a little of this and a little of that. very few people can make that kind of approach work for them.
3) my passion is for ILC so there's very few things out there that i'd be interested in anyway (daito-ryu or some other JJ maybe or possibly a knife system), and then we go back to number 2 above...

we had a sponsor to go to OR, so the whole deal was covered (i.e. it didn't "fail"), but he didn't have a base of his own students or a network of other MA guys in the area to promote to as did the folks who did Tim's workshop. In contrast look at the success of the recent London workshop. Now, if you can go a new city the first time and have a killer turnout without those things I'd be interested in how you do that.

But worth is based on what others are willing to shell out, and their is a certain saturation point as well.

funny that you mention that. i noticed that you seem to imply the your BJJ teachers are in a different league than my Sifu, so I'd like the chance to convince you that he's worth every penny he charges.

the nearest workshop to you coming up would be the next Oakland workshop http://iliqchuan.com/content/oakland-ca ... s-workshop

i'll meet you there. you can touch hands with my Sifu there, then we can touch hands (we can even spar a few rounds if you want).

if you come away from the weekend GENUINELY not impressed with what we have to offer, i'll cover your workshop fee myself, otherwise you pay FULL price, and either way you write about the whole weekend in your blog. what do you say?

[Josealb]

Win-win situation....either be impressed by skills you didnt know were there and be happy because you got what you paid for, or get your money back.

[cerebus]

Cool! You're gonna be in Oakland? I can't afford to even pay my bills, much less a seminar, but I'd love to meet up for a coffee (which I also can't afford, but which I still buy anyway. Gotta have SOME kinda "luxury" item in my life! ). And I'd love to meet Jake too if he takes you up on the offer.

[ashe]

Cool! You're gonna be in Oakland? I can't afford to even pay my bills, much less a seminar, but I'd love to meet up for a coffee (which I also can't afford, but which I still buy anyway. Gotta have SOME kinda "luxury" item in my life! ). And I'd love to meet Jake too if he takes you up on the offer.

well, i'll only be in Oakland to meet up with Jake for the workshop, otherwise no, i won't be going. but absolutely, if i'm in town you'll definitely have to join us for dinner one of the nights.

[Jeice]

Apparently I've been going about things all wrong. I'm fully going to start griping at people until they pay for me to attend cool seminars. Fuck this politeness bullshit, gets you NOWHERE!

so as not to derail the wu style topic in events.

ashe
As with you I am entitled to my opinion. Last time I checked you did not show up to anything of "mine" so I am not sure if you know 100% what you are talking about. As I stated worth is subjective. It was obviously worth it for you to fly 2000 miles to portland for your teacher, but it was never "worth" it for you to drive 500 when I lived in NM to train so.....

that just sounds like sour grapes.

a) i don't think you were still living in NM by the time i started posting here
b) i NEVER attend other peoples workshops for several reasons
1) budget
2) time - i'd rather be really good at ILC, so any extra time for training should go into that. not touring somebody else's system that i'll never work on again after the weekend is over. or just picking up a little of this and a little of that. very few people can make that kind of approach work for them.
3) my passion is for ILC so there's very few things out there that i'd be interested in anyway (daito-ryu or some other JJ maybe or possibly a knife system), and then we go back to number 2 above...

we had a sponsor to go to OR, so the whole deal was covered (i.e. it didn't "fail"), but he didn't have a base of his own students or a network of other MA guys in the area to promote to as did the folks who did Tim's workshop. In contrast look at the success of the recent London workshop. Now, if you can go a new city the first time and have a killer turnout without those things I'd be interested in how you do that.

But worth is based on what others are willing to shell out, and their is a certain saturation point as well.

funny that you mention that. i noticed that you seem to imply the your BJJ teachers are in a different league than my Sifu, so I'd like the chance to convince you that he's worth every penny he charges.

the nearest workshop to you coming up would be the next Oakland workshop http://iliqchuan.com/content/oakland-ca ... s-workshop

i'll meet you there. you can touch hands with my Sifu there, then we can touch hands (we can even spar a few rounds if you want).

if you come away from the weekend GENUINELY not impressed with what we have to offer, i'll cover your workshop fee myself, otherwise you pay FULL price, and either way you write about the whole weekend in your blog. what do you say?

[ashe]

just to be clear this isn't a "challenge match". just offering jake the chance to come out and see what we do first hand and get a wide cross section of how we feel.

[klonk]

Apparently I've been going about things all wrong. I'm fully going to start griping at people until they pay for me to attend cool seminars. Fuck this politeness bullshit, gets you NOWHERE!

Classic!

[JAB]

Ashe
Sour grapes about what bro? I was just stating that you have little base to form your opinion on. Thats all. No sour anything here.

I did not mean to imply anything on your end failed, I stated MY experience. Actually the instructor that brought Tim in only had a few students of his own attend. Most of the folks were from other schools in the area. The first time I held seminars up here for teachers have all been huge success'... Cartmell / Martello / LaPlatney / Hu Xi Lin.....

"My BJJ teachers..." I have no clue what "league" your teacher is in. So to imply anything is foolish. I have one BJJ coach BTW. I think you believe I train with some of the guys I have advertised on the web. No. You are wrong. I am not even bringing in most of them, they are hosted by others in the area so I have no clue why they charge what they do. Most of it is based on the market.

So your assumption is actually wrong bro. My point is not aimed at you or your teacher personally (the thread was never even about Sam!?!?). There seems to be this attitude in CMA where certain people charge what I consider a lot. $200 + dollars for two days is a lot to me. And to most hard working folks practicing CMA. Is ____________ worth that $200+...... subjective. Cobrinha (who keeps getting brought up for no good reason, is not worth $200 for two days. So lets unbunch our panties and chill as none of what I have said has been a personal attack on you nor your teacher (another common thing I am finding in the CMA.... you guys are not that important ).

As for your super sweet offer Ashe....
Bro, if I was interested in what your teacher did I would have been in Portland. Sam looks like a nice guy and his push hands look good, but I have 0 interest in what you guys do.
Secondly I cannot afford a trip across town right now, let alone down to Oakland to satisfy some weird itch you have. I am a case in point... average Joe making below average money that cannot afford expensive seminars all the time, let alone ones I need to fly to, get a hotel for, eat out 4-5 times a day... etc.

So thanks for the "kind" offer. If it was not a "challenge" you shouldn't have to defend yourself by saying it is not a "challenge."

You guys are a bit high strung. Perhaps some Chinese herbs may help

[D_Glenn]

Uh... JAB, I take it math wasn't one of your high points.

A two-day (16 hours of training) seminar with Cobrihna at $100 for 2 hours would actually be $800.00 for the 2 days.

Rafael Lovato Jr. charges $80.00 for a 4hour seminar but if he did a two day seminar (8 hours a day) it would be $320.00 for the 2 days.


The BJJ is obviously more in demand and they can get away with charging the higher price of $20.00 - $50.00 per hour for a seminar.


Meanwhile the CMA seminars are only able to charge about $10.00 to $20.00 per hour of a seminar.

But how much lower can the prices get before the seminars wouldn't even be able to happen?


.

[everything]

It's all supply and demand. BJJ is just so much more popular and the tournaments create some names. Whether Lovato, Jr. or Cobrinha can teach average Joes well, I have no idea.

As an aside, as far as BJJ goes, learning from your average blue, purple and brown belts is already too much material for me. Nevertheless, having had the opportunities to get some brief exposure to both Cartmell and Chin was awe inspiring. Just something qualitatively different you get when the teacher is both incredibly high level and incredibly clear in explaining things in concrete detail. I retained a couple of things from each teacher to keep working on. When you get exposure to someone at an incredibly high level in whatever field, it's just a different experience. At best they can show you what the "peak experience" - a "transient moment of self-actualization" should be like - taking you out of your normal training rut. Your average mid-level belt can show you something basic like an armbar or whatnot which is the "kungfu" you need to work on to even aspire to that peak level but I find some of these seminars inspiring. It's like going to a run of the mill music teacher vs. hearing Pavarotti live or something.

[johnrieber]

i am sorry. but it's one of those sundays, and i have to do this.

"I'm the choke-hold on your neck that won't meet Sam Chin for free!
Unless you limo me in and the driver's from the the Swedish Bikini Team!"

sorry, ashe. i know you were trying to keep things classy.

[Dabbler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yetPcm9e ... re=channel

sorry, ashe. i know you were trying to keep things classy.

ME ARSE!!!!

[Franklin]

I think you believe I train with some of the guys I have advertised on the web. No. You are wrong. I am not even bringing in most of them, they are hosted by others in the area so I have no clue why they charge what they do. Most of it is based on the market.
-

just curious- do you happen to input your personal opinion on the prices that these guys are charging when you advertise them...




franklin

[JAB]

Actually yes Franklin. I do. Thanks.
$100-130 is about average for the area seminar wise (whole weekend), regardless of who it is. $200 is starting to push into a lot of money. Not only my opinion, opinions of others around here too. I go off the standard in town.

And no math was not my strong point, but you have to keep things in context...Cobrinha and others are not doing 10 hour long marathon sessions! Actually I lie.... Tim taught for 10 hours in Portland, I believe the weekend was $100. So there you have it.

What don't you guys get about all this? I think it is great if your town can hold seminars and what not for $200+ dollars. Really, I do. I wish I could charge that to give to my teachers. Reality is I live in one of the richest cities in North America, and still people (on average) cannot afford $200+ seminars! I did not create this, it is what it is.

One last example... I would love to train with Rickson. But if he was charging $200+ to train (REGARDLESS of the hours ratio) I could not afford it right now. And I think he would be worth it.

[Franklin]

ok

if you really believe that the venue will not handle the price- maybe it would be better to contact the promoters (or poster of the information) by PM- and give them the low down on the situation through your eyes
seems to me you would make more friends that way.... and come off less like your goal is to break people's rice bowls


Franklin
ps-
my opinion is that people can charge what they want
i have had teachers that taught me for free and others that i had to pay
everyone has to eat-