“The untrue preface of Liu He Quan text” by Yan Zhi Yuan(Dr.

[salcanzonieri]

Came across this blog entry
http://drstephenyan.blogspot.com/2010/02/untrue-preface-of-liu-he-quan-text-by.html

“The untrue preface of Liu He Quan text” by Yan Zhi Yuan(Dr. Stephen Yan) 2009-12-08

Two days ago a martial friend Hu Gang from Canada called and asked about the status of the essay I started writing on “The untrue preface of Liu He Quan text”,enquiring if I have finished ? I replied that due to being occupied with training,work as well as my research work I have not had time to complete it.But I told him that when I was in Shan Xi Tai Gu I did obtain a copy of the Guang Xu period copy of the manual of Xin Yi Quan,and i did obtain another different copy in Ping Yao . In those two different two manuals , the preface was the earliest,the untrue preface of the manual came from Tai Gu branch of Xing Yi Quan.

The reason that I said so is because when Li luo Nen was learning Dai XYLHQ,the Dai Family XYLHQ and Guo Wei Han both were very conservative.In fact Li Luo Nen had never set eyes upon Dai’s family XYLHQ at all.His disciples at the prefecture of Tai Gu also did not know about Dai Shi XYLHQ.When Mai Zhuang Tu was invited to Qi county to teach martial arts to Fan family,Mai Zhuang Tu was also invited to the house of Li Luo Nen’s disciple’s house at Tai Gu.The martial skill of Mai Zhunag Tu did impressed the second generation of Xing YI Quan masters.The surpirise they have had was that it was the very first time they actually witnessed XYLHQ.And it differed from Xing I Quan significantly.This gave rise to their deep respect for Mai Zhuang Tu.Thereafter donation was made to build a small bridge at Lu Shan the hometown of Mai Zhuang Tu.It was called “He Hu Jiao”(Black Tiger Bridge).I visited the place and Mai Zhuang Tu's great grandson Mai Gui Sheng several occasions and have sighted the names of those who donated the money for the building of the bridge.It was carved on the stone at the location.including the names of Che Yi Zhai ,Song Shi Rong .

And Xing I Quan second generation became worried that other might thus question their lineage and purity .There they have found a few reasons to explain away the differences between their system and Mai Zhunag Tu’s.Hence pulled an unrelated Cao Ju Wu name in aid to falsely create the “preface” to the manual.Making Dai Long Bang,Ma Xue Li both were learning from Cao Ju Wu .There were lack of communivcation esp relating to lineage issue there seldom wish by the responsible to add words to the matter if possible ,the second generation Xing I masters only heard of the name of Dai Long Bang and Ma Xue Li.But no one knows that Dai Long Bang and his sons were the disciple of the grandson’s of Ma Xue Li ,Li Zhen,hence created the untruth stating that Ma Xue Li had asked Dai Long Bang to write the preface.And brought in Cao Ju Wu,creating further misleading writings on Ma Xue Li,Dai Long Bang as well as Cao Ju Wu's disciples hence placing Xing I as in the same league as XYLHQ.Because of the conservativeness of Dai’s family the writers did not even got the name of the Dai father and sons wrong.The writer of this essay who made this untrue preface was Li Yun Heng,both Che and Song clearly jioned to plane the story .

When I am free to write more I will detail more on this matter.At the same time I would like to point out that on the falsely written “Ji Ji Ke self preface” came from the same source.

[salcanzonieri]

oh, by the way, I am not posting this as my endorsement of these ideas.
Just for people to see and comment if they wished.

[shawnsegler]

I thought anything having to do with him was auto BTDT?

[Josealb]

BTDT. Its like candyman...you make 5 posts about Yan and he pops up, or sends his mini Yans to talk for him.

[salcanzonieri]

I thought anything having to do with him was auto BTDT?

Well, it seemed relevant to the "Che Prohibition' thread.

In my opinion, the Preface makes sense that Liuhe Quan always said that their material came from Yue Fei, and in a way it really did. What they trace some of their material (which is what Eagle Claw style was developed from via Liu Shijun) back to is Shandong province's Meihua Quan (brought to Hebei by the Yun Men sect. The Yun Men was a martial art practicing sect that developed in the times between the Ming and Qing dynasties. It combined the Liuhe Quan and Meihua Quan styles, helping to create the larger system of Liuhe Men seen today. Like Henan and Shandong’s Mei Hua Quan, this martial art was associated with anti-Qing rebels, with some of its teachers having ties to the infamous Yi He Tuan (The Society of Harmony and Justice). After a defeat at the hands of the Qing, rebel Zhao Mingshan sought refuge in Shao Meng Village with a big land owning family, from there he taught the style.)
This Meihua Quan wasn't regular version of it. It was mixed with Shaolin material.

By the 1700s, Shaolin had absorbed other Henan / Shandong border area martial arts, as documents printed in that time period had discussed (these documents are well discussed in the "Shaolin Monastery" book that came out a few years ago). These documents mentioned the arts of ‘Yue Jia Duanda Chui’, Shandong ‘Mizong Quan’ (i.e., ‘Lost Track Boxing’), and ‘Meihua Zhuang’ as having had a profound influence on ‘Shaolin Quan’ (originally having only the ‘Rou Quan’ and ‘Luohan Quan’ material), which adopted ‘Meihua Zhuang’s’ wooden post training methods and to use them the necessary ‘Ba Fang Bu’ stepping patterns. During the 1700s, thanks to Qing persecution, many Shaolin “soldier-monks” left Henan and traveled to other provinces, especially Shandong and Hebei, many of these people were later part of anti-Qing rebel groups.
In Laizhou (莱州) village, Shandong they started the "Shaolin Meihua Men" school, which practiced most of the sets that eventually reached Hebei.

Anyways, some monks from here brought the 'Yue Jia Duanda Chui' - "Yue (Fei) Family (meaning 'army men') Close Range Strikes". Its what was later practiced by Liu Dekuan as "Yue Shi San Shou".

AND, in Cangzhou, the Cao family was well known for not only practicing "Liuhe Quan' from its 2nd generation in Hebei, but also for practicing "Bafan Quan" which is what this "Yue Jia Duanda Chui" was part of.

Both Chinese Muslims and Sectarians were mixing in Hebei because of anti-Qing sentiment.

See? You can draw your own conclusions from this.

[Daniel]

Thanks for good information again, mr Canzonieri. Much appreciated.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Slim]

In my opinion, the Preface makes sense that Liuhe Quan always said that their material came from Yue Fei, and in a way it really did.

Hi Salcanzonieri (or others who have thoughts on this)

Just curious about your take on the Yue Fei connection and what you meant by "in a way it really did."

I was always under the impression that martial arts said to have been invented by Yue Fei originally most likely weren't and simply following the Chinese habit of ascribing a legendary figure to ones work. One of the teachers of my Teacher originally practiced Yue Shi San Shou so I'm aware of the view of these sorts of things from within the tradition (not to mention XYQ or TJQ and Zhang Sanfeng or LHBF and Chen Bo), however it seems from a historical perspective it doesn't hold much water. I'm mostly thinking of the source 岳武穆年譜 which has very little to suggest Yue Fei developed and passed on any martial arts. The bio of him in the History of the Song does mention martial ability but it was written 60 years after his death so might not be fully accurate. Of course there is all the folk lore and legends that developed around the man but its hard to know what's historically real. Anyways I would be interested to more from the perspective of Chinese martial arts historians.

[salcanzonieri]

In my opinion, the Preface makes sense that Liuhe Quan always said that their material came from Yue Fei, and in a way it really did.

Hi Salcanzonieri (or others who have thoughts on this)

Just curious about your take on the Yue Fei connection and what you meant by "in a way it really did."

I was always under the impression that martial arts said to have been invented by Yue Fei originally most likely weren't and simply following the Chinese habit of ascribing a legendary figure to ones work. One of the teachers of my Teacher originally practiced Yue Shi San Shou so I'm aware of the view of these sorts of things from within the tradition (not to mention XYQ or TJQ and Zhang Sanfeng or LHBF and Chen Bo), however it seems from a historical perspective it doesn't hold much water. I'm mostly thinking of the source 岳武穆年譜 which has very little to suggest Yue Fei developed and passed on any martial arts. The bio of him in the History of the Song does mention martial ability but it was written 60 years after his death so might not be fully accurate. Of course there is all the folk lore and legends that developed around the man but its hard to know what's historically real. Anyways I would be interested to more from the perspective of Chinese martial arts historians.

It not 'Yue Fei" that invented it, of course for all the reasons known.

Its people that are called "Yue Jia" Yue's Family (not meaning the style that his descendants practice today, which is very similar though). This is a term for the the martial arts that were spread by the returning military men of the Southern Song army. It's a code word for Chinese empire loyalists. They were also called "knights" as well, in a nod to the time period of the Noble Knights Errant. These people were the "wandering Taoists" of history in the central plains.
So, it is martial art material that is named after Yue Fei, but the physical connection is this stuff is descended from military methods.

[Slim]

In my opinion, the Preface makes sense that Liuhe Quan always said that their material came from Yue Fei, and in a way it really did.

Hi Salcanzonieri (or others who have thoughts on this)

Just curious about your take on the Yue Fei connection and what you meant by "in a way it really did."

I was always under the impression that martial arts said to have been invented by Yue Fei originally most likely weren't and simply following the Chinese habit of ascribing a legendary figure to ones work. One of the teachers of my Teacher originally practiced Yue Shi San Shou so I'm aware of the view of these sorts of things from within the tradition (not to mention XYQ or TJQ and Zhang Sanfeng or LHBF and Chen Bo), however it seems from a historical perspective it doesn't hold much water. I'm mostly thinking of the source 岳武穆年譜 which has very little to suggest Yue Fei developed and passed on any martial arts. The bio of him in the History of the Song does mention martial ability but it was written 60 years after his death so might not be fully accurate. Of course there is all the folk lore and legends that developed around the man but its hard to know what's historically real. Anyways I would be interested to more from the perspective of Chinese martial arts historians.

It not 'Yue Fei" that invented it, of course for all the reasons known.

Its people that are called "Yue Jia" Yue's Family (not meaning the style that his descendants practice today, which is very similar though). This is a term for the the martial arts that were spread by the returning military men of the Southern Song army. It's a code word for Chinese empire loyalists. They were also called "knights" as well, in a nod to the time period of the Noble Knights Errant. These people were the "wandering Taoists" of history in the central plains.
So, it is martial art material that is named after Yue Fei, but the physical connection is this stuff is descended from military methods.

Interesting, thanks for clearing that up. I just took a course at my university last term covering the "Noble Knights Errant" in Chinese literature, great stuff.

[salcanzonieri]

Yeah, technically it is "FROM" Yue Fei, meaning Southern Song empire's military.
But not that he himself created it.
Most likely he did practice some sort of military martial art, even Henning agrees with that.
But what exactly no one can know.

His descendants do practice a martial art that they claim has been in the family since his times.
There's been a lot of stuff about this in the Chinese news, they have found some ancient papers and so on
about his martial practices.

[Muad'dib]

"Noble Knights Errant"

what are the characters for this?

[edededed]

Who knows? Sounds like a rather loose translation, maybe 武侠 (wuxia) or just 侠 (xia)?

(Also note that in Japan, 侠 normally refers to the Yakuza... talk about changing the meanings of Chinese characters...)