Discarding Tingjin

[Scott P. Phillips]

The recent bodybuilding thread raised some issues about so called tingjin, sensitivity and "listening" skills.

In my heretic opinion, tingjin is important because simply using words, modeling, and imitation are not enough to adequately transmit kinesthetic knowledge. In this outside the mainstream view, the purpose of tingjin is to feel what your trainer or partner is doing. If your trainer is doing something correctly, then naturally you try to copy it. If your partner is doing something poorly you try to learn, through feeling, what not to do.

This skill is sometimes used to gain an advantage over an opponent because if your opponent is making a mistake, and you can feel it before they do, you can exploit it.

But tingjin is not an attack or a defense and it is a form of jin. It is a form of jin because it has focus, form, direction and intent. Because it is a form of jin it should be discarded.
If your mind is trying to "listen" in a fight it is doing the wrong thing. Of course if your opponent is trying to listen too, well hey, then the two of you can have a little tea party together.

Going a little further out on a limb, could it be that the sneaky old masters taught listening to keep their students subordinate?

There are many aspects of Chinese martial arts which can only be transmitted through tingjin, it is a necessity. But if you want to reach the highest levels, it is a mistake to think of tingjin as a fighting skill .

[Chris Fleming]

Nope. It's a fighting skill. The tai chi hippie brigade will try to tell you otherwise, but the greats used their skills to fight. They got their *seemingly* magical skills which made it look like they knew what you were going to do even before you did because they spend hours and hours a day practicing and sparring. Scott, I would love to see a video of your many fights to see where exactly you are coming from in terms of what is supposed to happen in a fight and what your mind is supposed to be doing while in combat.

[D_Glenn]

All the CMAs have striking, kicking, throwing, and locking.

If they didn't have throwing and locking you could maybe make the argument that one could survive without tingjin/listening skill by just slugging and kicking away.

But Tingjin not only covers when in direct contact- knowing when and where to throw, knowing when a qin-na/ lock has become effective and whether to press beyond that, but higher levels of tingjin skill also listens to the opponent's 'Yi'/intention before contact is made, it's threat assessment. It only becomes better and more refined.

There is no sane reason to ever "discard" it!

***

[edit] Chill on the drugs hugs man.





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[Scott P. Phillips]

Both of you can edit your comments about drugs and hippies or you can go fuck yourselves.

(edit) thanks Glenn.

[Chris Fleming]

That's it Scott. Let it out.

[ChiBelly]

But tingjin is not an attack or a defense and it is a form of jin. It is a form of jin because it has focus, form, direction and intent.

I always wondered why it was considered jin - this makes sense.

[Doc Stier]

Scott:

As a former hippie myself during the 1960's, with old photographs to prove it, I see nothing wrong with a hippie lifestyle. However, there are very few real hippies around anymore nowadays, IMO.

For me, getting back to the thread topic, the application of listening energy to live combat has nothing to do with any kind of conscious thinking or decision making, but is rather a part of the subconscious process which also manifests effective automatic reactions and spontaneous responses while engaged in serious fighting.

As such, the listening skill is something which is employed behind the scenes, so to speak, in a way that never interferes with being fully present in the moment when facing potential injury or death in combat. It is simply one more useful tool that enables me to achieve optimum efficiency as a martial artist. It is, therefore, something to be valued as an indispensable martial asset, not something to be discarded out of hand as worthless and irrelevant.

Doc

[Josealb]

Scott, lay down on the shrooms and the dance classes a bit?

Seriously, if you really think that Tingjin is done with the mind, and thats why it needs to be discarded, you need a reality check. Less dancing and more real MA.

[Josealb]

What doc said. Its the body that "listens"....never the mind.

[GrahamB]

Both of you can edit your comments about drugs and hippies or you can go fuck yourselves.

Scott you're just not listening!

HA HAAAA HAAA HAAAAA HAAA HAHHHAA AA HAHHAHHAHAHH HAHHAHAHAH

[Doc Stier]

Dammit, Graham!

Nobody likes a frickin' smartass.

Let a word to the wise be sufficient!

[johnwang]

if you want to reach the highest levels, it is a mistake to think of tingjin as a fighting skill .

This is the difference between the CMA and the western boxing. In boxing, you try to hit your opponent before your opponent can hit you. In CMA you try to build a bridge and sense your opponent befor you give your final commitment. IMO, the CMA approach is much safer. Old Chinese saying said, "The opening that you can see may not be the true opening. The opening that you can feel should be the true opening."

When you shoot at your opponent's leg/legs, your opponent may step back and pull you down with his body weight on top of you. When you shoot, you don't know whether you can reach to your opponent's leg/legs first, or whether your opponent can reach to your head first. Your judgement is by using your eyes for the distance which may provide you the wrong information. But before you shoot, if you can pull your opponent first, through the contact (bridge), you can sense whether your opponent is moving toward you, or your opponent is resisting against you. If your opponent is moving toward you, you can add more pulling. If your opponent is resisting against you, you can reverse your pulling into a pushing.

Here are 2 simple examples.

http://johnswang.com/tearing_resist.wmv
http://johnswang.com/tearing_follow.wmv

If your mind is trying to "listen" in a fight it is doing the wrong thing.

If you don't listen, you are totally "blind". When I was young, I had used "shooting" to shoot myself all the way below my opponent's knee (because I didn't "listen" first).

http://johnswang.com/downward_pulling.wmv

[internalenthusiast]

scott, i don't think i get your original post.

if one doesn't listen/feel, how can one tell what is going on, or how to respond? whether at touch, or before?

this would be like saying: an army should not to listen to (or should otherwise ignore) what the enemy is doing, and where they are.

i can't understand how one could counter, adapt, or take advantage of anything, if one didn't listen to what's happening.

even a chess player must pay attention to what the opponent is doing.

i can't think of any human interaction (adversarial or cooperative) where listening isn't important.

[Scott P. Phillips]

Doc wrote:

For me, getting back to the thread topic, the application of listening energy to live combat has nothing to do with any kind of conscious thinking or decision making, but is rather a part of the subconscious process which also manifests effective automatic reactions and spontaneous responses while engaged in serious fighting.

You have described exactly the problem. It becomes a subconscious automatic reaction. That is precisely the reason why it must be dropped. It will inhibit higher level fighting.

Glenn:
If you define tingjin as something you use to see openings and determine threats without having made physical contact, well..OK. But that isn't standard.

On a friend you might need listening skill to tell if a joint lock is working. When I was working on a 40 foot fishing boat off the coast of Alaska the biggest guy, backed by all the other crew, cornered me in the folks-hole with my back to the diesel engine. It was a situation where I needed to dominate but it would have been bad to cause real damage (we'd have had to head for shore). I knew I had the lock because he dropped to his knees and screamed, "Please, don't brake my arm!"

[Sprint]

It will inhibit higher level fighting.

Eh, how? Give an example of higher level fighting.