Discarding Tingjin

[jtan]

Here's an article which explains the differences between jin and li. The article also touches on tingjin and dongjin.

However, its in Chinese, but I think its worth the effort to try to find someone to translate it for you.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_500f68f60100cr9j.html

Li is strength/force. Jin is trained strength/force. It's like the eskimos have (supposedly) 20 words for different kinds of snow. Unless you live in the environment enough to differentiate snow - it doesn't make sense. (Because it is experiential - you can't describe the color 'white').

There is 'force' (li) and then there are (the different jins of 'force') - 'gravity', centrifugal force, centripetal force, 'tremors', vibration, pulsing etc. all different (descriptive) words for the same idea of 'force'. And then there is jargon where in the context of a technique one word means a slightly different way in a style than it does in another style or ordinary conversation.

[D_Glenn]

You know I think this is why my teacher doesn't use chinese terminology. It just creates confusion. Practice more, think less.

My teacher doesn't speak English and I've actually come to prefer the Chinese language over translations, there's so much more depth in each word/ character, they contain more meaning, and it's closer to how our mind functions, learns and categorizes new skills.

The fact that no one can agree on a translation isn't a problem with the Chinese language, it's the English language that lacks the words to convey the same details.


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[DeusTrismegistus]

You know I think this is why my teacher doesn't use chinese terminology. It just creates confusion. Practice more, think less.

My teacher doesn't speak English and I've actually come to prefer the Chinese language over translations, there's so much more depth in each word/ character, they contain more meaning, and it's closer to how our mind functions, learns and categorizes new skills.

The fact that no one can agree on a translation isn't a problem with the Chinese language, it's the English language that lacks the words to convey the same details.


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I mentioned this discussion to my teacher and he said something similar that in chinese context is very important and things arent as absolute as they are in english.

[everything]

Li is strength/force. Jin is trained strength/force. It's like the eskimos have (supposedly) 20 words for different kinds of snow. Unless you live in the environment enough to differentiate snow - it doesn't make sense. (Because it is experiential - you can't describe the color 'white').

There is 'force' (li) and then there are (the different jins of 'force') - 'gravity', centrifugal force, centripetal force, 'tremors', vibration, pulsing etc. all different (descriptive) words for the same idea of 'force'. And then there is jargon where in the context of a technique one word means a slightly different way in a style than it does in another style or ordinary conversation.

Great explanation thanks a lot

[D_Glenn]

I mentioned this discussion to my teacher and he said something similar that in chinese context is very important and things arent as absolute as they are in english.

Yeah, that's the real beauty of it. That there are no absolutes really makes it a great language for martial arts.

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[Ron Panunto]

I mentioned this discussion to my teacher and he said something similar that in chinese context is very important and things arent as absolute as they are in english.

Yeah, that's the real beauty of it. That there are no absolutes really makes it a great language for martial arts.
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Well some may consider it beauty while others consider it frustrating. Just look at the word Qi. It means everything, but no one can define it specifically. This allows for a lot of bullshit and nonsense and makes it very difficult to define goals and methods to achieve them. If you can't specifically define something, like jin or qi, then how the hell do you know when your on the right track or just chasing a chimera?

[D_Glenn]

My teacher put it that: 'your own body is your teacher, the instructor can only observe you from the outside and use his experience to try and guide you towards the right path but he can't really tell what's happening inside your body or the connections you make in your own mind. Gains and progress comes very slowly in the Internal martial arts, so daily input from an instructor is too much, you need to listen to your own body: "did that feel right or wrong, try and do it the way that feels right." This is a road with many forks in it, you will always have to choose the left or the right fork, ideally you choose the paths that take you to your destination, the instructor can only make sure you're not going in circles. Mistakes will be made and some so bad that you will have to backtrack all the way to the original fork where you made the mistake and start over. The instructor made his own mistakes, his teacher made his own, and you will make your own, everyone's mistakes will be different. The instructor can only make sure you don't make his but he can't foresee the ones you might make or even notice them on the outside until they've become bad. There is no straight path to mastery.

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[Felipe Bidó]

Mmmm...CHImera...

[Ron Panunto]

My teacher put it that: 'your own body is your teacher, the instructor can only observe you from the outside and use his experience to try and guide you towards the right path but he can't really tell what's happening inside your body or the connections you make in your own mind. Gains and progress comes very slowly in the Internal martial arts, so daily input from an instructor is too much, you need to listen to your own body: "did that feel right or wrong, try and do it the way that feels right." This is a road with many forks in it, you will always have to choose the left or the right fork, ideally you choose the paths that take you to your destination, the instructor can only make sure you're not going in circles. Mistakes will be made and some so bad that you will have to backtrack all the way to the original fork where you made the mistake and start over. The instructor made his own mistakes, his teacher made his own, and you will make your own, everyone's mistakes will be different. The instructor can only make sure you don't make his but he can't foresee the ones you might make or even notice them on the outside until they've become bad. There is no straight path to mastery.
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Well I hear what you are saying, but in my opinion, it's a piss-poor way to learn a skill set. It's no wonder that people spend 10 years learning Taiji and still can't defend themselves, and it's attitudes like this that perpetuate the problem. There must be clearly defined goals and ways to achieve these goals in a clearly defined manner. There should be no reason to go along some wrong path for years only to have to go back to the beginning and start over again, that is totally ridiculous. Imagine going to college and getting to your junior year and the teacher says to you "too bad - you took the wrong path - start over as a freshman and when you get to junior year again we'll see if you took the right path this time, but chances are that you won't."

[D_Glenn]

The problem is that there is no one example that defines it (Jin). Bailewen's example of billiards is one I've thought of myself but in this example where you hit the cue ball has to be left out, the jin is only how the pool cue is used- like stop it short or follow through. One of the Jins in bagua is to learn to let the wrist relax when your strike is blocked at the forearm and it's close enough to their face or eyes that the fingertips can still at least graze them. So Jins don't have to only contract or put out force but they can also be done by relaxing a body part. Coming back into the body- getting an opponent to stick to your own forearm requires inhaling the breath and withdrawing to the dantian, that's another jin.

In our bagua zhang there are 6 different Li or forces;mechanics that enable the body to deliver power: ni, shun, han, ting, deng, and beng, then there is 'fa li' the mechanic that is added in to those in order to emit the force, only emitting on strikes that land or throws that will be effective, otherwise the 'fa li' is contained in the body and the attack is changed into the next and the power in your own body is built up. These 6(7) mechanics cover every possible strike in Baguazhang and will be used alone or in combination to move and power the body through all of it's possible strikes and throwing methods. Built upon these 7 Li are all the Jins that change the quality of the movements. Take Fa Li for example- you can change the speed, timing, and rhythm of how the tailbone tucks and the subsequent movement of the spine to make it a short Jin like a pulse or make it a long Jin like a wave, 'Fa Li' becomes refined into 'fajin'. Use the fajin directed into your own legs rather than the arms combined with a relaxed upper body makes a Zhen Jin (shocking power). Changing the force in the rest of the body: tension then relax, relax then tense, tense only, relaxed only, only one joint in the arm is relaxed, timing the strike with the exhale, timing the strike with the inhale, stop the arm on contact, make contact and follow through, etc. -- all make for different jins and not even touching on what the 'Yi' begins to do and how it can shape a strike that continues into the opponent like drilling spiraling strikes vs. just straight force strikes. First they physically need trained but as the 'Yi' becomes more and more involved it only takes a thought to manifest a jin, changing from one to another mid-strike.

Hope that helps.

And my major mistakes and setbacks -- always keep your chin tucked to avoid serious shen disturbances (All my TCM knowledge comes from getting treated for this). Don't rush it when learning to fa li as it hurts when 2 vertebrae knock into one another. Always make sure your dantian is full and solid, imagine that someone could gut punch you at anytime during your practice and you want to be ready for it, this will save tremendous wear and tear on your liver and spleen.


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[Doc Stier]

Mistakes will be made and some so bad that you will have to backtrack all the way to the original fork where you made the mistake and start over. The instructor made his own mistakes, his teacher made his own, and you will make your own, everyone's mistakes will be different. The instructor can only make sure you don't make his but he can't foresee the ones you might make or even notice them on the outside until they've become bad. There is no straight path to mastery.

This may be true when the 'instructor' is only a journeyman practitioner who has not thoroughly mastered the material personally, or when a practitioner is primarily self-taught from books and videos. In either case, there is no path to mastery, but only a long and winding road to nowhere except back to the beginning over and over again.

However, IMO, a real Master Instructor who has made all of the major mistakes common to IMA practice, both internally and externally, many times over many years time and has successfully identified these errors and corrected them with the assistance of their own master, will be capable of spotting a student's mistakes and errors at a glance. As such, they can thus correct same before they become ingrained habits that need to be eliminated later on through wasteful backtracking and re-learning.

This normally includes not only the correction of mistakes in the external performance of form sets, techniques, energy dynamics and principles, but it also includes errors in perception and intention relevant to the practices. This is the foremost reason why it is so important to train with someone who has a thorough mastery of the material, and who therefore won't unknowingly pass problematic mistakes and errors on to their students.

Doc

[D_Glenn]

Mistakes will be made and some so bad that you will have to backtrack all the way to the original fork where you made the mistake and start over. The instructor made his own mistakes, his teacher made his own, and you will make your own, everyone's mistakes will be different. The instructor can only make sure you don't make his but he can't foresee the ones you might make or even notice them on the outside until they've become bad. There is no straight path to mastery.

This may be true when the 'instructor' is only a journeyman practitioner who has not thoroughly mastered the material personally, or when a practitioner is primarily self-taught from books and videos. In either case, there is no path to mastery, but only a long and winding road to nowhere except back to the beginning over and over again.

A more careful reading of my post should clarify that I didn't say go back to the beginning.

We strive to bring everything thing along at the same pace, and advance quickly but a small mistake quickly becomes a bad habit, so it's difficult to change that bad habit while still striving to practice hard and progress all the aspects of your practice that are correct.

Factor in the arrogance of a new student who doesn't listen to the corrections. It's similar to the apprenticed trades of a carpenter in which I've been on both ends, apprentice and teacher, you can tell the apprentice over and over "Be careful or your going to hit your thumb with that hammer." You can say this again and again but they don't really learn until they do smash their thumb with that hammer.

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[Doc Stier]

We strive to bring everything thing along at the same pace, and advance quickly but a small mistake quickly becomes a bad habit, so it's difficult to change that bad habit while still striving to practice hard and progress all the aspects of your practice that are correct.

And a more careful reading of my post in the paragraph following the one you quoted states:

"....a real Master Instructor....will be capable of spotting a student's mistakes and errors at a glance....before they become ingrained habits that need to be eliminated later on through wasteful backtracking and re-learning.

Nuff said!

Doc

[D_Glenn]

We strive to bring everything thing along at the same pace, and advance quickly but a small mistake quickly becomes a bad habit, so it's difficult to change that bad habit while still striving to practice hard and progress all the aspects of your practice that are correct.

And a more careful reading of my post in the paragraph following the one you quoted states:

"....a real Master Instructor....will be capable of spotting a student's mistakes and errors at a glance....before they become ingrained habits that need to be eliminated later on through wasteful backtracking and re-learning.

Nuff said!

Doc

And if you'd actually read the rest of my post that you literally just quoted, you would have read this:

Factor in the arrogance of a new student who doesn't listen to the corrections. It's similar to the apprenticed trades of a carpenter in which I've been on both ends, apprentice and teacher, you can tell the apprentice over and over "Be careful or your going to hit your thumb with that hammer." You can say this again and again but they don't really learn until they do smash their thumb with that hammer.

Now! it's nuff said!


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[Doc Stier]

Not quite.

The unfortunate scenario of students who choose to reject or ignore the proper corrections and refinements offered by an expert teacher, or are simply too frickin' lazy to implement the feedback they receive, is another issue altogether, IMO, separate from whether the student is training with someone who is actually capable of providing truly expert feedback in the first place.



I mean...you can lead a horse to water, son, but you can't make her drink!

Doc