by Wuyizidi on Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:33 pm
China is a very big country with very distinct regional cultures, each with its own deeply-rooted traditions, so what is a correct and respectable in one region may not be so for another. So I will note the region in my response. It's really not that complicated:
先生: xian sheng. For all regions: in China this is the traditional address for teacher. This is only for teachers in academia, not appropriate to use for someone in a 'lower' level (In Old China commoners are classified into 4 levels: shi [intellectuals], farmers, artisans, merchants). Unlike Japan, we don't have a special class for soldiers/warriors, as in China they are traditionally recruited from farmer class, therefore of same status. As martial art is regarded a low level job roughly equivalent in status to farmer/artisans, martial art teachers cannot be called xian sheng, unless they are also scholars like Wu Yuxian or Li Yiyu. In which case they would certainly prefer Xian Sheng over Shi fu.
In academia we don't really have the whole disciple/student distinction. As the kind of knowledge imparted here generally deal with larger questions in life, fields like philosophy, literature, history, economics, etc. There are no secrets that, once known, will put your teacher or your rivals out of business.
Since the fall of Qing Dynasty, xian sheng has been largely demoted to mean 'mister'. Japanese pronounce it sensei, today the Japanese still use this to address teachers in academia, doctors, and martial art instructors.
师父: shi (teacher) fu (father): teachers in the artisan class are called shi fu. This is where all the traditions associated with discipleship comes in. Since we're talking about a set of manual skills used in a trade here, secrets are very important. In this kind of environment, secrets can only be taught to people you can trust 100% like your son. Hence all the traditions. In academia no one would expect the only disciple to take his impoverished, sick literature professor into his home, respect him like his own father, and take care until his death. In a trade, whether it's Beijing Opera or martial art, this level of expectation exists, because the relationship between teacher and disciple has to be unusually close. In the old days, unless you're a disciple, you would never get to learn anything important.
老师: lao shi (old teacher): actually lao doesn't always mean old, it could mean rank. For example, when we say lao da, lao er, we don't mean old one, old two, it's number one, number two. The term laoshi became popular in late Qing Dynasty, when modern education reform started. Before that, all education are private. Now, patterned after Western systems, learning become systematic, standardized. Of course here modern means new, better. Teachers in modern school systems are called laoshi (at least in the north). So laoshi is now the most highly respected title for teachers in academia, whereas xian sheng began to sound quaint, old fashioned. In people's mind, Xian Sheng seemed to be associated with old, out-dated knowledge, like Confucian classics.
In mainland China today, people in academia or research regularly refer to older colleagues as laoshi. For example, my mom's colleagues (both from mainland and Taiwan) at a large U.S pharmaceutical company call her He Laoshi, even though she never taught. There might be many nuances in here us outsiders don't know about. Because she has a PhD, which on the mainland you must have to be associate professor or full professor. I'm not sure if I ever heard anyone with masters degree being referred to as laoshi...
So during this time, late Qing Dynasty, early Republic era, many of the old ideas and traditions are being challenged by progressive Western ideas. Old class distinctions were falling away. Many martial art teachers in Northern China, now wanting more respect, started using the term Laoshi instead of 师父. You can see written record of this in many Wuxia novels of that era. In fact, it became fashionable for martial art teachers to wear spectacles (like real scholars who spent too much time reading under poor lighting), even though there is nothing wrong with their eyesight. So it's not surprising John Wang never called his shuai jiao teacher anything but laoshi.
师傅: shi fu - master craftsman, experienced worker, which of course means he's qualified to teach. In Northern China at least, 师傅 is not used to address one's martial art teacher. In modern society, 师父, and its associated disciple concepts are largely irrelevant. So in Northern China today, 师父 is rarely used. But 师傅 is. For example, 大师傅 - big shifu, means Master Cook. In everyday usage it's a respectful term for any blue-collar worker: from carpenter to bus driver, etc.
Like Nian Fong said, there are a lot of etiquette involved. For example, before I became a disciple, I would call my teacher Zhang laoshi. Now it's just laoshi. It cannot be Zhang laoshi (this would not be a problem in an academic setting). Even if I am disciple of many teachers, when alone, I would address each as just 'laoshi', and only use 'XXX laoshi' if more than one is present...
Discipleship is a very large, complicated issue. Today it's not that serious. So that would explain Meek's example about informality. In the old days, you must follow each step of the elaborate ceremony down to the letter. If you deviate even one bit, others can claim you're not a real disciple. For example, sometimes a teacher don't really want to take someone as disciple, but doing it out of pressure (for example student is a major warlord like Li Jinglin), he'll skip or fudge a step or two, which would signal the truth to fellow cognoscenti. Or if you didn't invite all the important (and potentially important) people in the group, that could be disaster. Because asked to vouch for you, they could say "who? Is he a disciple? I don't know. I've never been invited to such a person's discipleship ceremony."
Wuyizidi
Last edited by
Wuyizidi on Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:31 pm, edited 18 times in total.