will the real cloud hands please stand up?

[everything]

I've learned 3 cloud hands forms now and I personally only like the Yang style. What is the deal with why they're so different? For example, what is with the Chen style method? I don't see how it could be useful in empty hands applications to have the feet crossed. Everyone else says never do that except in a split second into a throw. However, it gives me an excellent hip stretch. Am I totally misguided here? Is it an awesome move, and I just don't know its incredible awesome-ness? Does everyone prefer this posture from one particular taiji style? thanks for any advice or non sequitur witty replies.

[DeusTrismegistus]

got some videos to compare for those of us unfamiliar with these strange other methods?

[nianfong]

if you slide your foot behind for cloud hands, it's setup for a throw probably. same as steal step for shuajiao.

[bruce]

I've learned 3 cloud hands forms now and I personally only like the Yang style. What is the deal with why they're so different? For example, what is with the Chen style method? I don't see how it could be useful in empty hands applications to have the feet crossed. Everyone else says never do that except in a split second into a throw. However, it gives me an excellent hip stretch. Am I totally misguided here? Is it an awesome move, and I just don't know its incredible awesome-ness? Does everyone prefer this posture from one particular taiji style? thanks for any advice or non sequitur witty replies.

the chen xin jia method i practice has 2 different methods one with a step behind and one with out.

for me the crossing your leg behind and twisting can be used to throw as fong said. also as a arm trap / elbow break also ...

think of it as getting out of the way of a punch by pivoting.

a. punches w/ r hand
b. intercepts w/ l hand at the same time as b. steps back/behind with right leg twisting body to the right weight going into l leg.
b. places l hand around a's right shoulder and applies a lock or throw.

another point is within yang there is more than one method of cloud hands ... in my tai chi chuan practice i do 5 methods of cloud hands.
one of which you can see here at about .35 seconds into the clip. it is with no stepping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynXWQYo5ZFY

another variation can be seen here from the 24 form http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HesN9B4xVfA

[ninepalace]

I've learned 3 cloud hands forms now and I personally only like the Yang style. What is the deal with why they're so different? For example, what is with the Chen style method? I don't see how it could be useful in empty hands applications to have the feet crossed. Everyone else says never do that except in a split second into a throw. However, it gives me an excellent hip stretch. Am I totally misguided here? Is it an awesome move, and I just don't know its incredible awesome-ness? Does everyone prefer this posture from one particular taiji style? thanks for any advice or non sequitur witty replies.

you know since i've seen that video of feng zhiqiang in the video section, i've been thinking about that too. not why it's useful, but i thought cloud hands was an advance. did that video make you start thinking about that too?

(edit) after i wrote this post i stood up and actually tried it. i see it is both an advance and a retreat. shows the problem to theorizing too much. better to stand up and practice.

[everything]

Ok thanks a lot, Bruce. it's going to take me a while to think about the answers. I'll try to post a follow up.

I didn't see that video, ninepalace. I've been wondering about it for a while. This week I tried the chen with leg crossed for no particular reason and it feels good as an exercise due to some hip tightness. The way I've learned it as a form doesn't seem like any throws I've learned (mainly judo), though so the leg crossing seems weird. Also just wondering about so many variations.

[ninepalace]

I didn't see that video, ninepalace. I've been wondering about it for a while. This week I tried the chen with leg crossed for no particular reason and it feels good as an exercise due to some hip tightness. The way I've learned it as a form doesn't seem like any throws I've learned (mainly judo), though so the leg crossing seems weird. Also just wondering about so many variations.

funny coincidence. i've been thinking about that for a couple days now. just admit, i got into your head.

[mixjourneyman]

Cloud hands can also be an armbar in Chen style. You do the step behind you and swing your hips to give it more whole body torque.

[everything]

haha yes apparently so

[kreese]

You can also scoop a kick and continue turning to throw.

[Jack Burton]

Prefer Chen Style Yun Shao over Yangs personnally

[everything]

Jack would you mind sharing why you prefer it? Specific applications? specific aspect of the different movement?

[AllanF]

There are actually 3 stepping methods in the Chen taiji, one the same as yang (feet step together), one stepping behind (Che bu) and one stepping infront.

There is a difference between taolu (form) and application.

The stepping behind is exactly what Fong said, it is for throwing. Yun Shou is a very cool move as it involves lu, kao, zhou and ji. Upper hand should be empty lower hand full. upper hand is lu then lower hand moves in as you can kao then elbow then press/push/throw etc.

[Jack Burton]

Allan thanks for your excellent answer-glad you included stepping in front, I'm not sure how common that is

For me its more practical than yangs but thats just a personal opinion

Yes locks, throws, strikes as well as the 'leg apps'

[nianfong]

hm, stepping in front... what's that for?