Is "internal core" sufficient?

[johnwang]

Someone made claim as:

"IMA is not about having hundreds of techniques, its about having the "internal core" that allows any technique to work ..."

Let's test this assumption to see if this statement is true or not. Assume you are an "internal" guy (I don't know who is qualified here and who is not). If you throw a "hook punch" and your opponent blocks it or dodges it,

- What will your "hook punch" be able to change into by using your "internal core"?
- Can you name at least 10 different changes from your "hook punch"?
- Do you still need combat knowledge even if you have "internal core"?
- Can "internal core" truly allow any techniques to work?

[Steve Rowe]

"IMA is not about having hundreds of techniques, its about having the "internal core" that allows any technique to work ..."

That's a badly written statement as good use of the core will make techniques work better.

[marqs]

I don't believe it. For techniques to work, you need speed, power, sensitivity, timing, good positioning, ... Good movement skills and power generation can help you a big part of the way, but if you're lacking in something like timing or angling, you're in trouble.

[jonathan.bluestein]

There is a difference between:
- Doing IMA and developing "core internal skill".
- Having "internalized" the essence of a martial art/s.

These are two different things.

I don't think there is one such thing as "core internal skill".

A person who has embodied the essence of martial arts can deal with most (though not all) violent situations, AKA mastery, which is rare.

[Ron Panunto]

There is a difference between:
- Doing IMA and developing "core internal skill".
- Having "internalized" the essence of a martial art/s.

These are two different things.

I don't think there is one such thing as "core internal skill".

A person who has embodied the essence of martial arts can deal with most (though not all) violent situations, AKA mastery, which is rare.

They may be referring to Pengjin.

[Robinhood]

If you have a different core driving a hook punch, it will be like a hook punch but not like a hook punch thrown by a non connected person, so why would the punch have to change into something else, if a car drives around a turn, does the car need to change, no it just goes around the turn and is in a new place.

To say a hook punch is the same punch to everyone is not right, its like a hook, looks only.

Having a core or root will give you a base that will allow techniques to have a starting point, otherwise it is like two guys swinging on ropes trying to control the each other, neither one every has the ground helping him only a better position for a moment.

[Chris McKinley]

I'm with Steve in that I think it was just worded poorly. Here's the bottom line: good, even really, really great, internal mechanics won't give you jack shit if you don't also know how to fight. Same with the more general category of shen fa. A really great engine does not a Ferrari make. Even the whole Ferrari doesn't mean jack if you don't have a driver with years of racing experience behind the wheel. There simply is no mechanical substitute.

That said, a really good set of internal mechanics in the hands of someone who knows what the hell they're doing in a real fight becomes a Dremel tool. What attachment you choose to stick on the end of it at any given moment is entirely up to you.

[Interloper]

I'm with Steve in that I think it was just worded poorly. Here's the bottom line: good, even really, really great, internal mechanics won't give you jack shit if you don't also know how to fight. Same with the more general category of shen fa. A really great engine does not a Ferrari make. Even the whole Ferrari doesn't mean jack if you don't have a driver with years of racing experience behind the wheel. There simply is no mechanical substitute.

That said, a really good set of internal mechanics in the hands of someone who knows what the hell they're doing in a real fight becomes a Dremel tool. What attachment you choose to stick on the end of it at any given moment is entirely up to you.

Good post, especially the bolded line!

[Interloper]

John,
This has been explained in a number of threads, by others and myself.
"Internal" isn't a fighting method in itself, it's a methology for power generation and the basis for (for lack of a Chinese or English term) "aiki" -- a specific kind of internal structuring that allows you to control the body of another -- instantly upon contact. If your opponent attacks you, you can receive, absorb and neutralize his power and then return it to him, augmented with your own added power. You can either bounce him off, stuff him downward, suck him in and seal to him and smother him with your own "sticky" body. Controlling his center, even briefly, buys you enough time to do whatever you need to subdue him -- throw him or take him down, choke him, or whatever other sequence of attack avails itself.

So, if he throws a hook punch, you can use that hook punch. In fact, you would WANT him to try to punch, kick or grab you because any contact he makes with you provides the pathway for you to control his center.

External method relies on torquing the hip, pivoting on the foot, and using other "outwardly generated" power sources to drive technique. By contrast, Internal method manipulates fascia, tendons, breath, joint connections and other "inside" things to creat "inwardly generated" power. It allows you to hit and kick without chambering or torquing the hip or pivoting on the foot. It also allows you to "have no center" so no one can find where your body mass is focused. This makes it extraordinarily difficult for a non-internally trained person to sweep, throw or take down someone who has good internal method.

That's basically what it's about, though others could say it much more articulately than I.

Someone made claim as:

"IMA is not about having hundreds of techniques, its about having the "internal core" that allows any technique to work ..."

Let's test this assumption to see if this statement is true or not. Assume you are an "internal" guy (I don't know who is qualified here and who is not). If you throw a "hook punch" and your opponent blocks it or dodges it,

- What will your "hook punch" be able to change into by using your "internal core"?
- Can you name at least 10 different changes from your "hook punch"?
- Do you still need combat knowledge even if you have "internal core"?
- Can "internal core" truly allow any techniques to work?

[Wanderingdragon]

At the simple level of a hook punch, if nothing stops the arc of power, it simply follows it's circular course, if you control that circular force by internal core integrity you will have the ability to direct that path of force in any direction, for any change you deem necessary.
Internal is definitely a fighting method and the internal core control every move as well as generates all power.

[Robinhood]

John,
This has been explained in a number of threads, by others and myself.
"Internal" isn't a fighting method in itself, it's a methology for power generation and the basis for (for lack of a Chinese or English term) "aiki" -- a specific kind of internal structuring that allows you to control the body of another -- instantly upon contact. If your opponent attacks you, you can receive, absorb and neutralize his power and then return it to him, augmented with your own added power. You can either bounce him off, stuff him downward, suck him in and seal to him and smother him with your own "sticky" body. Controlling his center, even briefly, buys you enough time to do whatever you need to subdue him -- throw him or take him down, choke him, or whatever other sequence of attack avails itself.

So, if he throws a hook punch, you can use that hook punch. In fact, you would WANT him to try to punch, kick or grab you because any contact he makes with you provides the pathway for you to control his center.

External method relies on torquing the hip, pivoting on the foot, and using other "outwardly generated" power sources to drive technique. By contrast, Internal method manipulates fascia, tendons, breath, joint connections and other "inside" things to creat "inwardly generated" power. It allows you to hit and kick without chambering or torquing the hip or pivoting on the foot. It also allows you to "have no center" so no one can find where your body mass is focused. This makes it extraordinarily difficult for a non-internally trained person to sweep, throw or take down someone who has good internal method.

That's basically what it's about, though others could say it much more articulately than I.

Someone made claim as:

"IMA is not about having hundreds of techniques, its about having the "internal core" that allows any technique to work ..."

Let's test this assumption to see if this statement is true or not. Assume you are an "internal" guy (I don't know who is qualified here and who is not). If you throw a "hook punch" and your opponent blocks it or dodges it,

- What will your "hook punch" be able to change into by using your "internal core"?
- Can you name at least 10 different changes from your "hook punch"?
- Do you still need combat knowledge even if you have "internal core"?
- Can "internal core" truly allow any techniques to work?

Yes, good post, if someone has that internal core and developed it for use, non core people feel really weak, and their size does not make much difference.

[Robinhood]

At the simple level of a hook punch, if nothing stops the arc of power, it simply follows it's circular course, if you control that circular force by internal core integrity you will have the ability to direct that path of force in any direction, for any change you deem necessary.
Internal is definitely a fighting method and the internal core control every move as well as generates all power.

Yes, good , description of energy continuation.

[somatai]

Well, here is a real life observation. About a week ago I joined a BJJ school and have been to 5 classes. Bjj is very technical, I had no idea how technical gi based grappling can be. I am in way over my head in terms of the technique and skill level of the guys I am rolling with. These guys compete and train hard. I am very impressed with the work ethic and the overall training program. I am loving it actually.
The one thing that everyone I roll with comments on is my strength. I do not lift weights and have never thought of myself as very strong, not weak, but not strong. I am not very big, 155lbs, but I can feel the power difference I have over these guys and it is a function of connection and the way that I have developed my body through XYLHQ. Once I get a lay of the land and more experience rolling I feel I will do quite well. I am 41 and walked in on the 1st day and was able to roll with everyone there, most of them in their 20's and quite keen. Again I am getting tapped by guys as I am new and learning, no problem, "invest in loss". I keep getting told by guys " wow your a strong dude" they are surprised by it. That is "internal core"in my mind.
I will also say that rolling is filling in my XY training in great ways, it is getting me strong in ways that I wasn't before. Great for hands, hips, feet, etc. I have huge respect for BJJ now and am enjoying the sport of it as well as comradarie of guys training hard. Hard to find in IMA.

Internal core + hard training and good finishing techinique is the goal

[Wanderingdragon]

This is not cross training nor would I consider mixing, I think it is good martial training and do commend on your work ethic. I am sure your XYLH will Profit from the experience. Over time you must ask your teacher to work these techniques from a strictly XYLH perspective, he may have some very interesting insight.

[Interloper]

At the simple level of a hook punch, if nothing stops the arc of power, it simply follows it's circular course, if you control that circular force by internal core integrity you will have the ability to direct that path of force in any direction, for any change you deem necessary.
Internal is definitely a fighting method and the internal core control every move as well as generates all power.

WD, I was referring to the methodology of power/structure development, as a universal power source to any kind of martial application. I wasn't saying that there is no internal method of fighting. Of course if you use IP and aiki in your fighting, it is an Internal Fighting Method.

The development of core power/structure is a specific training methodology that is later applied as the power source to Internal Fighting Method. \