meeks wrote:bailewen wrote:This just goes to show, there are disadvantages to joint locks that rely on pain. One of the advantages to Aikido, when it's done well, is that it does not depend on pain. It's more like Taiji in that you are supposed to blend perfectly with the incoming force and redirect it. When done well, there is nothing to fight against. You just lose your balance and get led around. "pain" never figures into the equation.
I had never thought of a person who just doens't feel pain but the example of someone who is drunk, high (on certain things) or even psychotic has been always been a common one, IME.
Agreed. I feel that in the beginning joint locks are about localized pain to the joint and later the joint lock is about controlling the person's root through the connection created by locking the joint 'through the limb' rather than 'at that spot'. Pain at that point is the icing on the cake rather than the cake itself as the real goal is about controlling their root.
You two would be surprised at how much more difficult it is to do this once a person as described is involved. Because they don't feel discomfort, one needs to go through a much longer level/movement to make them move like one wishes. I had the guy described (about my height and weight) fully cooperating with me, and it was still considerably more difficult to move him than some martial artists 30kg heavier and 20cm taller. The only way to move that guy around was to either cause him damage, or be very close to doing so. This is, however, when trying to use imbalancing through joint locks. That's not my thing anyhow. Other methods and shenfa worked pretty well on that guy - he did not have any more balance than the average Joe. In fact, I suspect the locks where helping him cling to something, while other methods did not.
From Michael's description, I think he can attest to that. The lowered sensitivity is a whole-body thing - it's not localized to their feeling of the particular lock. So the spine, too, does not feel too stressed. I suspect that in turn, this naturally make these people stronger than average, if not very strong, over time. This is because when they lift things, move things around, etc, it happens as well - they are not easily challenged, so they push their limit with many physical activities. They'd carry more groceries. They'd move heavier furniture. They'd go the extra few pullups and pushups in gym class... etc.