Andy_S wrote:This is the odd thing about the Yang style: There seems to be massive stylistic variation - rather than simple modification - within just three generations.
OTOH, if you look at the other styles - Chen, Wu, Hao, Zhaobao, etc - they are all much more similar across these generations (or, in the Chen style, probably longer).
Doc Stier wrote:Andy_S wrote:This is the odd thing about the Yang style: There seems to be massive stylistic variation - rather than simple modification - within just three generations.
OTOH, if you look at the other styles - Chen, Wu, Hao, Zhaobao, etc - they are all much more similar across these generations (or, in the Chen style, probably longer).
But it is interesting to debate what the original curricula were, and why these curricula managed to produce two (arguably, three) generations of super-fighters. Then - suddenly! - it is an exercise for old ladies just one generations subsequent.
I can't think of another example in history of a form of combative technology transitioning so very radically.
The "massive stylistic variation" seen within the ranks of Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan is simply due to the vast numbers of people who have pursued learning this style since it first became openly available to the general public during the early years of the 20th century. Up until the 1980's, the Yang style was the most popular style of tai-chi chuan worldwide, claiming as many practitioners as all other styles combined by most estimations, primarily due to the fame of the early family masters. Unfortunately, when large group classes taught in public venues for limited time periods replaced the older norm of individual students learning from a master in private one on one training sessions or small training groups for many years time, the average skill level quality among students declined dramatically overall.
Attrition rates were very high in these group classes, just as it often is today, but new students continued to appear, eager to learn. More people were practicing Yang style tai-chi chuan than ever before, but the number of students who were willing to study long enough and train seriously enough to successfully master the style was much lower than ever before. However, those with only a very basic, short term learning experience often dropped out far too soon to teach others. The result has been nearly as many different interpretations of Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan as there were teachers thereof.
Additionally, the new focus on practicing only slowly and softly for health and self-cultivation, often being advertised solely as an exercise for health and longevity, or as a moving meditation, all but insured that most students wouldn't be introduced to the older martial aspects of the art. And the fact that these skills disappeared so quickly after Yang Cheng-Fu's modifications is a testimony to how different his revision is from the older family versions of the style.
If current family leaders of the Yang style and other major tai-chi chuan styles are practicing the same methods used by their predecessors, why aren't they demonstrating the same skill levels as previous generations did? The same training methods should produce the same results in serious practitioners of any style across the board. Instead, it is known that the earlier masters of every major tai-chi chuan style, and their best students, typically demonstrated tremendous internal energy development and combat application skills which have been only rarely seen in the past 75-100 years time, especially in the post-1940 era to date.
I contend that this is due to changes made in the training regimens of each style by subsequent family members. This has gradually included changes in the form sets, changes of stylistic performance, as well as changes in practice agenda priorities. These trends in every style have resulted in a dramatically changed overall perspective regarding what should be practiced, how it should be practiced, and why.
Yang Chengfu taught a lot of people but he did not consider all of those people his students. If you see a list of his students it is rather short compared to all those that claim to have train with him.................
Then of course the "secret" forms show up and the "Original" forms (that have no lineage proof behind them)
yeniseri wrote: I am still not sure what lineage is, despite my many years
~Gandalf the Grey - absolutely nothing to do with TCC!They guard it because they have hope. Faith and fading hope that one day it will flower. That a king will come and this city will be as it once was before it fell into decay. The old wisdom that was borne out of the West was forsaken. Kings made tombs more splendid than the houses of the living and counted the names of their descent dearer than the names of their sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry or in high, cold towers asking questions of the stars. And so the people of Gondor fell into ruin. The line of Kings failed, the White Tree withered, and the rule of Gondor was given over to lesser men.
yeniseri wrote:Yang Chengfu taught a lot of people but he did not consider all of those people his students. If you see a list of his students it is rather short compared to all those that claim to have train with him.................
Then of course the "secret" forms show up and the "Original" forms (that have no lineage proof behind them)
This is my understanding or lack thereof
Words, their meaning and subsequent understanding are not always the same across social milieu. There are many people who studied with Yang Chengfu who are not even on his list of 'approved' students and that list, according to many, was changed after his death. Even close family (non Yang surname) are at times, treated as usurpers by so called lineage so the bottom line has to be what each person brings to the table and how they represent the art. I am still not sure what lineage is, despite my many years but again, I imagine that anyone who studies with a teacher, belong to that lineage. I realize we have brought up lineage many times but what exactly are we talking about when we nvoke lineage! This brings lineage to a new level of ad nauseaum stink, I assume
Andy_S wrote:...
and the more recent Huleijia or "Thunder Style" - they are all very recognizably the same art
...
extrajoseph wrote:Howard Choy must have felt the same way, that the Yang Family style is tired and spread too thinly. He went on to study with Chen Xiao-Wang after Yang Sau-Chung and Fu Sheng-Yuan in order to further his Taijiquan.
SCMT wrote:Hell how much do you think Yang Zhenduo (who originally claimed to have learned from his father) actually learned by the time he was 10 (he was born in 1926 and his father died in 1936). Truth is he learned mostly from his brother Yang Shouzhong
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