Andy_S wrote:SCMT:
In historical terms, I cannot prove that today's Chen style is similar to what Chen Wangting or even Chen Changxing taught. But we do have photos of Chen (Xiaojia) form from about 90 years ago, and they are virtually identical to today's stylists. So if there was only minimal stylistic variation between 1920 and 2013, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that there was equally minimal variation between the 1820s and 1920s (a period which encompasses the time Yang LC learned in Chenjiagou). Moreover: Given that there was virtually no MA media back then, and poorer transport/communications, ergo fewer chances for cross-pollination, I would even say that stylistic variation was less likely in the pre-modern times than in modern times. Today, there are a huge variety of influences and potential influences; that was much less the case back then.
And there is NOT a huge stylistic variation in today's Chenjiagou-area arts (at least to my eyes). Of the four main variations today - Laojia and Xinjia (both "Dajia," or large frame); Xiaojia or "Small Frame;" and the more recent Huleijia or "Thunder Style" - they are all very recognizably the same art. The bu-fa, shen-fa, movement sequence, fajing - are all very much on the same page. I suspect even a layman with no MA knowledge could see this. Hell, even Zhaobao is recognizable as Chen (xiaojia).
This is not the case with Yang style, even though Yang style is a younger art: The variations, even in basics, look much wider. Take a look at some of the clips Yuen Ming, who has spent a lot of time in Yongnian, has posted.
in the case of Chen I agree, there is not a big difference between Loajia and XInjia but in the cases of the other styles you listed they have changed or were changed to from other styles and they are younger than Yang.
But it does appear the Yang has changed more than Chen but we do not know exactly what Yang Luchan learned either, per Chen Xiaowang he learned Loajia Yilu, and nothing else and he learned it looking through the fence. Also per Chen Xiaowang you need Laojia Erlu to truly understand Chen Taijiquan and its applications. However there are some other accounts based on historical research the say Yang Luchan was an excepted student of Chen Wangting but they still seem to agree he only learned one form and that possibly is Laojia Yilu.
But then we have no pictures of videos of what Yang Luchan did ot Yang Jianhou or Yang Banhou or Yang Shouhou. We have pictures of Yang Chengfu when he was young and when he was older but no videos, so it is really hard to tell exactly how much it has changed. And all the claims out there of "this is the original Yang style" or this is the "Yang style of Yang Banhou" or "the secret Yang family style" I tend to look at more as sales than historical fact. But that does not mean that these older forms no longer exist, I just find it highly unlikely that what I have seen on YouTube is legitimate. As to "Secret forms" , in my opinion, those are complete fabricated rubbish for sales purposes only.
However I do tend to believe it changed a lot and I also tend to believe Yang Chengfu knew it and wanted to add another empty hand form to compensate but he died before it could be finished.
And as a bit of a side note, I have trained some Chen (Laojia Yilu, Chansijing, 18 form) and would still be if there was a Chen person in my area with the skill level and understanding of it like my sifu has of Yang style (from Tung Ying Chieh), but sadly there was not and still is not so I’m a Yangster.
