Chen Xiaowang Slams Feng Zhiqiang Applications

[D_Glenn]

I found Charles' answer to be obviously correct. More important than the "application;" Look at the shen fa of Feng and how he moves compared to Chen. No wonder he handled fisticuffs for the state.

+1

Here's the original CXW video: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTEzMzY4ODY4.html?x

The part is near the end and was originally linked in the "Foot Stomping" thread: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6915


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[middleway]

It's not unheard of that Chinese masters would intentionally teach bullshit to people outside of their inner circles.

This simply makes the guy an asshole. It honestly makes me wonder why someone would respect him or learn from someone they knew was openly bullshitting people around the world.

Also ref the thread.... Meh.... Politics.

Also ref the ap... Wtf.

Many thanks

Chris

[Andy_S]

Ian:

I am not disputing that Feng was a serious player and a man who did, in fact, know how to fight with his Taiji, and who taught some people same. (I noted this in the OP; I have mentioned Feng's "chaperone" role for the Beijing Wushu Team's US tour in the past; I have even posted a thread on this same page noting the excellence of one of his senior student's entries and applications.)

Nor am I criticizing Feng's (or Chen's) shenfa.

The discussion relates to the application he demonstrates, both here, and in at least one published work.

IMHO, the usage Feng shows is - to quote Chris - one of those "WTF" moments. (I am not talking about the World Taekwondo Federation.) Some others, above, think it is a reasonable fighting technique, or a reasonable explication of principle, etc. Personally, I don't, but I appreciate their responses. We can agree to disagree.

[GrahamB]

I concur with Chen on this - leaning down and punching someone in the foot is sillier than kicking them in the head - but the question is why Feng showed such ridiculous methods?

What's silly about kicking people in the head? Seems to work fine... and result in numerous knockouts.

[Andy_S]

Graham:

In a sports contest, nothing is silly about it. In an SD situation where you are not warmed up, wearing tight trous and could be kicked or kneed in the sack, it is not a very sensible technique.

Though, I confess I did it, once.

[GrahamB]

I bet I could find a video of a head kick being used effectively in a street fight in about 3 seconds. Don't make me do it Andy....

[middleway]

Andy, You just need some Chuck Norris 'action Jeans' Squire.

[GrahamB]

If it's good enough for Chuck Norris....

[charles]

for it being an efficacious application of a move - well, let's agree to disagree. IMHO, as a combative move, it is verging on the ridiculous. "It" being the punch to the foot; the head butt to the stomach; or any combination thereof.

Perhaps, because is verges on the ridiculous, that is the reason he shows it. I don't know. Probably, he could make it work, in the right circumstances.

Liszt, the classical pianist and composer, is known to have used his long nose to play notes on the piano that could not otherwise be played. Ridiculous? Yes, but it worked for him and allowed him to do things few others could do.

So your objection is really that you couldn't make it work, and, therefore, it is wrong?

Throughout life, I've seen some pretty ridiculous things that I certainly can't make work, but others have. That's part of what makes one noteworthy - the ability to do things that the average person cannot.

No, I didn't care much for the Feng/CXW book either. Or for a whole lotta other books on the subject.

[D_Glenn]

I'm pretty sure that 擊地捶 Ji Di Chui, as Feng taught it, was essentially the same as, or could be the same as Xinyi's 'Head Smashes the Tombstone', which is itself an often misunderstood movement and requires intentional misdirection, using the hand, so the opponent doesn't see the head attacking.

In CMA Shuai, the head is like a third arm. Also 'Face Changing' is basically pointing your nose to the direction you want the opponent to be thrown and works to make a throw more effective.

擊地捶 Ji Di Chui could also be reversed (opponent is behind you) and used to throw somebody over your head and onto their back.

I think these are some applications from Xinyi that could serve to help one understand Feng's applications better:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmQXuTpwDNc


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[charles]

I 擊地捶 Ji Di Chui could also be reversed (opponent is behind you) and used to throw somebody over your head and onto their back.

That is one of the common applications for this move, as is pulling the opponent down to do that, then suddenly reversing the direction to toss them backwards, or elbow them in the face, contrary to the direction the opponent is moving. If tossing the opponent, the rear leg - Feng's right as shown - can slide backward between the opponent's legs, either taking out his rear leg, or just increasing leverage for the throw. Another application is facing an opponent deflecting a punch to the side and then pressing your right fist into the opponent's forward thigh, locking his knee, then toppling him as you continue to press on his thigh. And so on...

[Andy_S]

Graham:

You don't need to find a vid - I have done it myself in (wait for it) 'da streetz.'

The recipient of the shoe to the head, incidentally, was a former SAS chap. The fellow who pulled me off him after things went to GNP was a US Marine intelligence officer - who subsequently plied me with sake. Some months later, the kickee came up to me in a bar, shook me by the hand and apologized for my roundhousing him in the head. (Seriously. You had to be there.)

But the point is, if I had been sober at the time of the ruck in question, there is no way I would have opened proceedings with a round kick on a high line. (In fact, if he and I had been sober at the time, the ruck itself would not have transpired at all. But you live and learn.) Sure, it worked fine, but in retrospect it was a very risky move and I am frankly surprised that I did it. Particularly since I had not practiced Hapkido for about a decade. And no, I was not wearing a pair of Chucks "Secret Gusset" trous or even rapper/plumber jeans - just regular strides IIIRC.

Anyway...

Charles:

Indeed, Feng might well have been able to make it work. Personally, I am against head butts to the body as they have all the disadvantages of the shoot (expose your face to his knee, your neck to his guillotine and your back to his elbow) with none of the advantages (opponent will be off-balanced backward or taken down, so will have difficulty responding effectively unless his timing is perfect).

The apps you refer to below are certainly more workable for the move (and its follow-up upper elbow) than the one demoed by Feng.

[GrahamB]

What, Andy? You head kicked a member of the SAS in a bar fight but now you wear slik pyjamas and do Tai Chi?

I suggest you stop with this Tai Chi nonsense forthwith, throw away your silk pyjamas, re-grow your beard, don some Chuck Norris pants and get back to living the life you were born to, because you, Sir, were Born to be Wild!

[Andy_S]

Wild? I was bloody furious!

[oskar]

Here is a Feng's student doing some applications.