Tibetan Hop Gar / Lions Roar

[Mr_Wood]

Kenneth Liu

Apparently a predecessor to Tibetan White Crane

[windwalker]

My teacher wrote a book about david chin, we used to go over over to his school
and spar a long time ago


Ron Dongs, school he studied under Gorge Long....what is seen in the set is actually how we moved
and spared long ago.. there are 2 aspects ape, and crane the one with his hands down would be using the ape
aspect the one with his hands up the crane...Each had very distinctive strategies for training and usage.

Very interesting style considered a "fighting style"
Mike Staples my teacher once told a perspective student who had asked
about meditation and other aspects of the training.

Mike said " if you want meditation go to a temple or church, here we teach fighting"
Needless to say the training was very severe, in those days also kind of secretive.
no intranet back then....

[Drake]

Lion's Roar is a singular art that spawned several different styles. Hop Gar, Lama Pai, and Tibetan White Crane are the sub styles. George Long, and Ron Dong taught White Crane. David Chin teaches Hop Ga/Knight's Art. My teacher, Wai Lun Choi, taught Lama Pai. All three have at their root Lion's Roar.

[Mr_Wood]

The style has a very rich history. This is taken from a friend/ teachers website

From 330BCE to 600CE India acted as a melting pot for various cultural, spiritual and martial systems. Greek, Persian, Afghan and native Indian systems intermingled and intermixed creating powerful strains that would have profound influence upon the world to this day. A system named Simhananda Vajramukti (Lions Roar Fist Art) was practiced and its founding was attributed to Indra. Even historical Buddha, being of warrior caste, is recorded as having learnt the art from the Guru Kshantideva.
From this mix Buddhism emerged and travelled with Monks to (amoungst other places) Tibet where it adapted to local traditions and, to some extent, the shamanistic traditions of the Tibetan people (Bön). Alongside with this various arts travelled including the Lions Roar martial art. The physical literature of the Lions Roar style contained a great deal of Hindu imagery and philosophy. This was not a problem as Tibetan Buddhism had largely already absorbed these archetypes.
Within classical Hinduism as well as Tibetan Buddhism there is a Vajrayana (Tantric) tradition, known in Tibet as “yesh cholwa”, or “crazy wisdom”. This means utilising someone’s path, whatever it is, as a means of transcending it. Whilst Buddhism may not agree with violence, supressing an impulse towards it is not a solution – leaving one ‘unwhole’ or passive aggressive individual. If the impulse is there much better to study violence and use it as a vehicle of transformation; essential ‘working through it’.
So the lions road became a paradoxical vehicle for transcending violence through the study of violence. It is worth noting that this was certainly not a break from Indian traditions, where there has always been a close relationship between martial arts and spiritual development. One only has to read the Bhagavad Gita to see that the central place of the warrior path in spiritual development explained (this is also true of the 24 Jainas saints and later of Sikhism).
Sifu Richards (in the early 70s) head of the Uk SiJiHao lineage
Sifu Richards (in the early 70s) head of the Uk SiJiHao lineage
After its further development in Tibetan the art then crossed the then culturally blurred border into China, the lineage gradual made the massive voyage from from the far north to the South of China. In China Lions roar is sometimes referred to as Indra’s fist, pointing to the arts Indian origin, or Lama Pai (Tibetan Monk Sect) in reference to the Tibetan influence. However it is also referred to as Hop Gar (Hero fist) in reference to the legendary fighting skills of Wong Yam who was unbeaten in full contact fighting and had a profound influence on many other systems in Canton.
From Hop gar the Tibetan White Crane system emerged placing emphasis on the crane aspects of the system. During the arts adaption to Chinese (Han) culture it undoubtedly continued to develop absorbing local fighting methods and often replacing Indo-Tibetan imagery/philosophy with Chinese equivalents. Some lineage changed more then others, some maintaining the Indo-Tibetan ideals and tantra, others replacing them with Taoist or Chan practices and some becoming purely fighting systems.

[Mr_Wood]

Windwalker, nice footage

there are 2 aspects ape, and crane the one with his hands down would be using the ape
aspect the one with his hands up the crane.

looks like a sketchy bagua set to me

[windwalker]

Windwalker, nice footage

there are 2 aspects ape, and crane the one with his hands down would be using the ape
aspect the one with his hands up the crane.

looks like a two man bagua set to me

its the way the style moves and works


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3xO5RgcMIU

back in the day, we used to use the kenpo gloves, sometimes with kendo head protectors
due to the nature of the style it was not easy to pull a punch, either your got hit or didn't

White crane, lama hop gar,

Has many types of foot work patterns. If you look at the floor you might be able to see some of them
We used to make concrete stumps to practice what was called plum flower stepping.

The style is quite distinctive, either your using the style or not, there really is not much in between.
The approach of how distance is controlled and used is quite exact. Entering bridging, and finishing movements
are practiced until what is shown one is able to use and move freely with.

The conditioning alone was very rough, we developed iron forearms, some trained in what was called
burning palm.

looks like a sketchy bagua set to me

haha, I suggest you might talk with others in the style.
too funny "sketchy bagua" wow

or you might buy my teachers book

[Mr_Wood]

haha its the internet, low blows are frequent

its very interesting and im not trying to disrespect what others are doing. just my sense of humour i guess. for me circle walking has another purpose than being a moving target.

[Mr_Wood]

p.s well done for catching the edit, calling in bagua just didnt seem right

[windwalker]

haha its the internet, low blows are frequent

its very interesting and im not trying to disrespect what others are doing. just my sense of humour i guess. for me circle walking has another purpose than being a moving target.

there is a whole art to what is being viewed and practiced...."moving target" again
its a good thing you think in this way....

many did at the time only to find out that they ended up being the target...

Mike also wrote this book


Ron Dong, and Mike shown on the cover where teacher Gorge Long's senior students at the time.
Mike, just back from Vietnam as a Marine, he wan't interested in what was called flower hand.
A lot of kung fu stylist never really used what they trained,,,Mike was very adamant that what one trained in
had to work and be functional...if it wasn't, train it until is was....In this there was no compromise.

@mrwood,

I spent a large part of my youth answering questions about the style in the only way one could or should answer
I guess my response is a reaction even though I stopped practicing the style many, many yrs ago.


In walking the circle one learns how to cut it, and arrive at interception points. One is able to move in before another can put
their foot down to take a step....its not like boxing foot work very different. In the clips shown, if one looks they can see the aspect of the crane and ape in use.
You might say one works from inside the circle the other from the outside....its about space and distance...

Hop gar among other CMA is or was noted as a fighting style back in the day. People who trained in this where what was called enforcers
in the various China towns. You noted some of its history, I kindly suggest reading more about it.
Mike, and another teacher wanted to add boxing hands so the other teacher could compete in one of the full contact venues of the day.
It was at this time I left feeling the the training was being driven by something I had little interest in.

What he did and taught was functional, practical, in some aspects he was kind of ahead of his time.

[Mr_Wood]

many did at the time only to find out that they ended up being the target...

You could write kung fu movies with lines like this

Again its just my sense of humor. Hard to read, im sure they trained very hard.

[aamc]

Discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23370&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

As a special note, I believe that Liverpool has one of the oldest, if not the oldest continuous school of CMA in the UK.

[shawnsegler]

Really liked this one. Good training.

[Wanderingdragon]

Lions roar, Tibeten Lama is an excellent fighting style that is quite practical, from my own experience it is an elite fight ender in street altercations, "you hit something you break something" the words of my teacher. The block is every bit as devastating as the strike, it's a long range style, and the footwork is deceptive as it does not circle as much as it steps in and out of your space while maintaining a safe perimeter. In my experience there is no greater fight finisher.

[Mr_Wood]

Really liked this one. Good training.

looks a bit stiff dont you think ? the teacher who appears at the end looks good

[shawnsegler]

They don't look bad for where they're at, I was more commenting on the exercises and gear.