balancing yin & yang

[lars]

this vid is quite interesting especially for beginners.. the women in the vid has never taken a martial arts class before and has never been shown any techniques.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIIFqV_79_w

Rich

Interesting with ways for absolute beginners to get a grip on intention, but the videos claim that: "yet is being held strongly by experienced aikidoka determined to control her" is not really true is it? Why the strange claim? Cant see much yang there...

[lars]

What I am doing in that series is applying yin and yang (BTW, that guy is 6' 5" and about 260 or so) to simple dumb force wrist grabs.

@bodywork
That looks impressive to me, especially because of your (for me) compromised position. I hope it is ok to ask you some questions about what happens?

To get this effect would you first redirect his force (down or to sides) to get a reaction from him that you then redirect upwards?

Do you connect to his structure through his "dumb force" and throw him directly upwards without any prior redirection?

From your previous writing I assume that you can do this using a well developed dantien movement. How different is it sitting compared from being in a standing position?

Thanks,
Best regards
Lars

[emptycloud]

What I am doing in that series is applying yin and yang (BTW, that guy is 6' 5" and about 260 or so) to simple dumb force wrist grabs.

@bodywork
That looks impressive to me, especially because of your (for me) compromised position. I hope it is ok to ask you some questions about what happens?

To get this effect would you first redirect his force (down or to sides) to get a reaction from him that you then redirect upwards?

Do you connect to his structure through his "dumb force" and throw him directly upwards without any prior redirection?

From your previous writing I assume that you can do this using a well developed dantien movement. How different is it sitting compared from being in a standing position?

Thanks,
Best regards

Lars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBq5dAYhf3k

its basic aikido practice...

[lars]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBq5dAYhf3k

its basic aikido practice...

In the video he redirects the incoming force to the sides around him, using structure.
To me it doesnt look the same (although difficult to see on the photos), which was why I asked.

[Bodywork]

What I am doing in that series is applying yin and yang (BTW, that guy is 6' 5" and about 260 or so) to simple dumb force wrist grabs.

@bodywork
That looks impressive to me, especially because of your (for me) compromised position. I hope it is ok to ask you some questions about what happens?

To get this effect would you first redirect his force (down or to sides) to get a reaction from him that you then redirect upwards?

Do you connect to his structure through his "dumb force" and throw him directly upwards without any prior redirection?

From your previous writing I assume that you can do this using a well developed dantien movement. How different is it sitting compared from being in a standing position?

Thanks,
Best regards

Lars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBq5dAYhf3k

its basic aikido practice...

No, it isn't.
And Mr. Shibata has neither the understanding or the conditioning to do what I demonstrate and do

I understand that you don't understand the difference, Rich.

[emptycloud]

Dan, so is the guy is trying to press and hold your arms down to try and prevent you from doing anything, by using his strength and weight?
If someone who had good ability to quickly 'fansong' (relax) then it might not have the same result. Or in other words - the more strength they give you the easier it is to move their whole body?

.

gymnastics..

[emptycloud]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWylz39joQg

[Bodywork]

As for Scott and Gymnastics?
From the man himself in the video:

Scot Burke:
Thoughts on the December Hawaii Internal Power Seminar and the future of Aikido
I've had a few days to recover from the Jet lag, coach seating (oy my shoulders and knees!), and the shock of returning to cold Japan from sunny warm Kailua. (Oh cooing doves, how I miss thee). I handed out the omiyage to friends and co-workers, caught up on a few meetings at work, getting back in the groove of things. It's also taken me this long to begin to collect my thoughts on the experience and the working model of IP and Aiki as taught at the seminar. Now a little personal background. For about, ohh just now 23 years or so I have been training in Aikido. For 19 of those years I have been an Iwama style guy. During that time I've devoted quite a large chunk of my life to the art, at one point I quit my job to become an uchi deshi with a high ranking instructor. I've turned down opportunites for promotion at work in order to keep up my training schedule at the old dojo. I've taken ukemi from a bunch of the big boys. I was once violently assaulted on the street and successfully defended myself against my attacker using solely Aikido (kokyu ho of all things, guy never saw it coming). And once, yes, I did walk four miles uphill in the snow just to get to the dojo. Well, maybe it was three and a half miles, but you get the point. I'm kind of an Iwamaniac.

So, now to the nitty gritty. Given all that, what did I think of the seminar and this whole IP deal? Well... as I've explained, I've been training for 23 years or so. I'm 41 now. So, for more than half of my life I've been doing this art and for just under half I've been in Iwama style exclusively.

Honest opinion: I learned more about Aikido this past weekend than I have in all of my 23 years of practice. Being given access to this training model is simply transcendental. There is no other way to say it, this is Takemusu Aikido. And, it DOES NOT negate that which I already know, it does not negate the legacy of Saito Sensei and my years in the Iwama tradition, in fact it illuminates all of it in such a way as to show us how we should be training. This is the power we've been seeking for years but could never achieve, no matter how hard we pushed ourselves in training or how much sciatic nerve crushing ukemi we took. IP is everything we got into Aikido for in the first place, it can be supremely soft and just stunningly devastating in the same moment. To put it another way, "This. F***ing. Rules!"

The Hawaii guys jokingly refer to their training location in the park as Area 51. An apt description, it seems to me. We've had the proverbial Aikido UFO up on blocks in a bunker for years. One Aikido lineage has the alien bodies in a tank at Hangar 18, another is making velcro and superconductors from the reverse engineered wreckage, and yet nobody knew what made that sucker fly. Well, IP is the reactor and now we can take that Aikido UFO out for a spin. Did I mention that I suck at metaphors?

So much of what we do in Aikido makes sense in light of traditional IP/Aiki training. So much so that it's hard to pick a starting point. Well, I suppose we could start by reading our own text books. Saito Sensei's Traditional Aikido series contains a plethora of information that pertains directly to IP, and yet I've never once, ONCE, heard a teacher explain it in as cogent a manner as was done in the seminar, much less talk about its existence. There is far more in those books than just the pictures and yet, that's precisely how we've been using them. Step by step picture guides for gross physical movement. That's a start, but the words, the real content... what do they mean, how does that drive what we do? This is bloody important! We've got a lot of work to do.

And it's not just reading the English translation either. Some of that stuff, it seriously needs a second pass by a translator who knows not just the traditional IP terminology (Chris Li I'm looking at you! I mean surely we can do better than "Body Exercises and their Unlimited Ramifications" for 体術その無限の展開. It makes it sound like one's chances of getting into a good school are ruined unless you meet the fitness requirement.) That's just one thing, but here's the quote that got me started on my whole "What is this IP noise and how does it jibe with what we're told to do?" quest.

Here's the English translation of a kuden, an orally bequeathed teaching mind you from O'Sensei himself, from Vol 1 of Traditional Aikido, describing Kamae for taijutsu and bukiwaza. "The rotation of the hips determines the movement of both feet. The movement of the head determines the movement of both hands." Okay, I'll follow you there, the first part sounds exactly like what we've been told how to train. Except that the Japanese text doesn't say that. It doesn't say rotate at all, it says movement,動き . The movement of the hips determines the movement of the feet.

But wait, O'Sensei's kuden uses the word Dou, 胴, the trunk, upper body, or torso. The movement of the trunk determines the movement of the feet. Hips, koshi, 腰 , is in parenthesis next to dou. So it should be taken as a qualifier for dou. (The second appearance of this kuden in Vol 4 of the series has a different translation and somehow koshi takes precedence and dou is now in parenthesis. I guess the kuden are kind of flexible, zing!). Now Japanese regional anatomical terms can be frustratingly indeterminate. Ashi can mean foot, or calf, or leg, there are separate kanji for these with the same pronunciation, and the Japanese will use them in print to differentiate between foot and leg. Orally, one can grasp the meaning from context, tone, or nuance in the voice. So to impart the nuance in print, we see the use of dou and koshi in parenthesis to indicate what section of the body moves the legs.

What is koshi? Well, that depends. Most westerners say hips and pat their pelvis to indicate their hips, so move your hips. Check, got it, we do that. (Funny side note about hips here in Japan, the English word hip is used to mean the buttocks, which can lead to all sorts of funny situations where everyone becomes embarrassed and giggles uncontrollably. Can't open the door, put your hip into it, hilarity ensues. But I digress.) What about koshi as the Japanese commonly use it? I've gotten a lot of different answers from a lot of native Japanese. It could mean anything from the loins, to the pelvis, to the sacrum, to the waist. Just like ashi, things get fuzzy. So let's find the overlap. Dou, trunk of the body, what part of the trunk? The koshi. And where does that overlap, in English? How about the waist? The movement of the legs is determined by the waist. What possible driver could there be for power at the waist?... And what of the head determining the movement of the hands? Why, it's almost as if there would have to be, oh I don't know, something attached to the head that could determine the movement of the hands? What could that be?... Sorry to be a tease but you'll have to take a seminar to find out.

The clincher for me, that one moment that really made me go, "Yeah this is it!" was an answer to a nagging little question (actually kind of a BIG question) about Aikido training and efficacy, in just about every style or group I've trained with, Iwama included, that has always bugged the hell out of me. The age old newbie question in response to a technique against a grab. "Why not just let go?"　

My learned response/answer over the years has always been, say it with me now, "Because you're giving a serious attack." I have held on so many, many times over the years as uke, well past the point where my hand would naturally open or when I'm in such a contorted position that holding on is ridiculous given that I could just let go and punch my partner. I've thought about this conundrum while holding on to Shihan mind you, (I could just let go right now but that'd be wrong) and I've even seen Shihan change out uke for ones who don't let go during techniques. Check out Youtube, it's all over the place.

The answer to "Why not just let go?" after the IP/Aiki seminar. "Well, I couldn't." All my grabs became attraction points, Yin and Yang (the 2 kis from the headliner quote) were made manifest and that's all she wrote. My hands were glued to the instructor and I could not, for the life of me, get them off of him. And I tried. Never have I had that happen. Just, stuck to nage and then tossed like a pie in the oven. Now, go back and look at those photos, look at the waza O'Sensei is doing, look at the waza Saito is doing. Why can't the uke let go? What are we doing? What do we need to do?

Well, metaphorically speaking, we're going to have to smile wistfully at the old homestead and do some remodeling. Tear out the old wiring there in the wall, it's a fire hazard. And the old land line's gotta go, install some T3 cable up in there, that's gonna cost ya. Got some asbestos up on the second floor, so you won't be staying up there for, oh, a long while now. Plumbing's gonna have to get ripped out, new marble countertops, mahogany rails get refurbished, chandelier's a loss, strip out the lead paint, oh and you'll need an exorcist because the closet is haunted. Let's face it, with all of that and the roof work the place is going to be pretty darn unlivable for a while....BUT! But, after all of that. Your house is going to be in great shape. Comfortable to live in and everything you've always wanted. The envy of all your nosy neighbors, and a welcome place for friends, family, and strangers alike. Worthy of the name AIKIDO. It'll take time, effort, patience. Pain. Intent. And humility. But all of that will be worth it. It is well past time to stop living in the shell of what this once great mansion has become. We've got to take command and restore this Noble House back to its glory days. The traditional methods of IP and Aiki development now openly available for the asking, is the way to do this. This work has been around for a long, long time and finally it is within reach. For more than half my life I've been seeking this.
To quote the great water engineer William Mulholland. "There it is. Take it!"

That is Scot's view.There are many more from bjj, MMA, and more traditional arts like Judo, Aikido, Taiji and others.

As Scot points out -I repeatedly say- No one has a corner on this stuff. This stuff is out there, just not widely known or really understood that well outside of an arts forms (particularly in freestyle).
In your case, Rich, the lack of understanding is repeatedly expressed both in your writing and in the people you choose to follow with your vids. Obviously, no one that you know of has the structure, knowledge or skill to do what I am doing (and others like me). I don't blame you -or anyone really- for your comments. You have no idea what you are looking at, and cannot do it, so you reach for explanations fitting your particular skill sets and level of understanding.
Good luck in your training

[Rabbit]

Interesting ...

Scott seems to be saying he cant let go, he literally cant let go. This after years of training and he doesn't seem to be referring to a cooperative training practice. He is not saying it 'feels ' like I cant let go.

This is were I get stuck Dan. I can see and understand semi cooperative work (I have done lots of it myself) but struggle to understand it when it goes beyond this. In the other clip for example the uke was groaning in discomfort and appearing to be 'stuck' in a crumple on the floor until he was rolled over. Was this cooperative at some level? If so, why the pain face?

Or was he literally unable to move ... like Scott, literally unable to 'let go' ?

[Bodywork]

I answered this in the Roy thread.
Semi-cooperative training should never be confused with sparring or fighting. And if you don't test it in a stressful environment... you're just kidding yourself.
That said, you train in cooperative practice, certain elements you use in fighting. In a clinch I'm lucky to get people to stick for fractions of seconds to multiple seconds and for me to weight or float them. But it will never, EVER, look like what I do in semi-cooperative training.
But....
THAT practice and solo training is where and how I learned the body conditioning to do it.

That said...
Most semi-corporative training I have seen?
Will NEVER, get you to that point.
De

[Rabbit]

I answered this in the Roy thread.
Semi-cooperative training should never be confused with sparring or fighting. And if you don't test it in a stressful environment... you're just kidding yourself.
That said, you train in cooperative practice, certain elements you use in fighting. In a clinch I'm lucky to get people to stick for fractions of seconds to multiple seconds and for me to weight or float them. But it will never, EVER, look like what I do in semi-cooperative training.
But....
THAT practice and solo training is where and how I learned the body conditioning to do it.

That said...
Most semi-coorporative training I have seen?
Will NEVER, get you to that point.
De

Thanks - I get what your saying but that doesn't answer my previous question. Scott doesn't seem to be saying ' through the cooperative practice I can make applications under pressure while sparring'. He says he CANT let go. Roys uke stays crumpled in a ball as if he cannot move until rolled over. Is he at this point engaged in 'semi cooperative' training? It looks like (he makes it look like) he has no choice. Is he engaged in a training method where he is cooperating or could he simply stand up?

I am pretty sure you wouldn't claim an MMA/kick boxing amateur would be subject to such ' no touch pinning' and you have been clear that there is a difference, yet Scott seems to say he simply 'could not let go'?

[Taste of Death]

I answered this in the Roy thread.
Semi-cooperative training should never be confused with sparring or fighting. And if you don't test it in a stressful environment... you're just kidding yourself.
That said, you train in cooperative practice, certain elements you use in fighting. In a clinch I'm lucky to get people to stick for fractions of seconds to multiple seconds and for me to weight or float them. But it will never, EVER, look like what I do in semi-cooperative training.
But....
THAT practice and solo training is where and how I learned the body conditioning to do it.

That said...
Most semi-coorporative training I have seen?
Will NEVER, get you to that point.
De

Thanks - I get what your saying but that doesn't answer my previous question. Scott doesn't seem to be saying ' through the cooperative practice I can make applications under pressure while sparring'. He says he CANT let go. Roys uke stays crumpled in a ball as if he cannot move until rolled over. Is he at this point engaged in 'semi cooperative' training? It looks like (he makes it look like) he has no choice. Is he engaged in a training method where he is cooperating or could he simply stand up?

I am pretty sure you wouldn't claim an MMA/kick boxing amateur would be subject to such ' no touch pinning' and you have been clear that there is a difference, yet Scott seems to say he simply 'could not let go'?

Scott's weight is on Dan. That's one of the reasons he can't let go. The other one is if he lets go he gets punched in the face.

[Dmitri]

...or could he simply stand up?

When things are cooperative, the mind is in a different mode; one lets it "go places" in this mode, explore things, and it visits there for prolonged enough periods. The result of which is "can't let go" or what-have-you (how "far" that will go or how "intensely" it is expressed depends on the individual).

When things are not cooperative, he "could simply stand up" -- however, "simply" here isn't quite that "simple". For a few milliseconds he would be unable to move the way he would think (probably later, when evaluating what happened) he'd need to move. And he would be unaware of that inability. This stuff messes with your mind/intent in a very cool fashion.


P.S. That's in my personal experience/understanding; far be it from me to answer this for Dan... FWIW.

[emptycloud]

maybe I am missing something but the guy (Scot) has nowhere else to go in this exercise but back, the rest is just physics. He could drive forward with his legs but that would be a different exercise.

I notice Scot is a Iwama stylist of some years, personally I never liked their approach, all that grading nonsense and bowing at photos. Bit cultish (and expensive) for me. Each to their own though.

[xxxxx]

[/downward spiral]