grzegorz wrote:Back in Taiwan was the heavy bag commonly used?
Or were other things used?
C.J.W. wrote:The heavy bag is a training apparatus borrowed from Western boxing.
Some traditional Chinese systems do include bag striking as part of power training, but the design, size, and setup of the bag are all very style-specific and meant to serve different purposes.
(Wing Chun's wall bag, for example, is designed to test one's structure and alignment.)
windwalker wrote:C.J.W. wrote:The heavy bag is a training apparatus borrowed from Western boxing.
Some traditional Chinese systems do include bag striking as part of power training, but the design, size[, and setup of the bag are all very style-specific and meant to serve different purposes.
(Wing Chun's wall bag, for example, is designed to test one's structure and alignment.)
I think its hard to talk about “bag” work with those who have not cultivated the skill sets from a CMA perspective.
They will always end up comparing it and thinking that what is done is equal to or amounts to the same type of training done for the same reasons by western sports.
It's not, it's different done for reasons based on a different set of ideas.
We had bags hanging filled with gravel, we used slicing motions on them with our forearms
developing what we called cutting hand and cutting arm. In the beginning due to the gravel
ones arms would often bleed from the training, in time the skin and bone would toughen.
One would would be then be able to cut, and those it was used on understood what cutting
meant.
C.J.W. wrote:
If all you do is whack the heck out of it like an average boxer or a kickboxer and try to apply that same primal aggression in fighting, then IMO, it has little to do with CMA and runs counter to its principles. With IMA in particular, many of the things we practice are the opposite of what others typically do and expect.
For instance, I personally prefer letting the bag hit ME instead of me hitting it.
Zhang Hongjun said “What does it mean to have gongfu? The 1929 Leitai tournament in Hangzhou is a classic example of how we should understand the term ‘gongfu’.”
In the tournament, Cao Yanhai (a student of the Central Guoshu Institute who eventually placed fourth) met the iron palm master Liu Gaosheng. Liu Gaosheng was famous in Shanghai for his mastery of iron palm and Ziranmen (Natural Gate); he was the head trainer of security guards for Shanghai’s 4 largest department stores and had close to 3,000 students, and was one of the favourites to win the tournament. Liu was not only a master of iron palm, he was also adept at hard qigong. Meeting such a tough opponent in the first round put Cao under pressure. At the beginning of the bout, Liu immediately launched a palm strike at Cao. Cao took the strike, thinking to gauge Liu’s power, only to find that half his body went numb – he could barely withstand it! Fortunately,Cao was calm under pressure and didn’t crumble. He took a deep breath, shook himself and hurriedly changed his tactics. Instead of taking Liu on head-on, Cao evaded as much as possible, trying to use sweeps and low kicks to attack Liu’s legs. This tactic helped Cao to go on the offensive. In the second round, Cao saw his opportunity and laid Liu out with a punch, winning the match. The next day, Zhao asked Liu how he could have lost: Liu was so vexed he punched the ground, breaking a brick in half, saying “Dammit, dammit”.
Purely from looking at the results, Liu Gaosheng’s gongfu was no match for Cao Yanhai; but Cao Yanhai could not split a brick – how can we explain this result? The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. Thus, one should not mistake hard qigong for combat skill. In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder. Li Jinglin, the Wudang sword master, head of the Central Guoshu Institute and organiser of the 2 Leitai tournaments, once said “If I were to be knocked down, I should respect my opponent’s gongfu: we should recognise that ‘he who can knock me down has gongfu'”.
Steve James wrote:Well, boxing training using bags almost always involve a lot of foot movement and footwork. You won't see one simply standing flat footed and hitting a bag. Speed bag work is somewhat stationary. In Japan, there is makiwara training, true. Otoh, there's no board or brick breaking in boxing.
I think, you're describing hand conditioning, not fighting skills. If you are standing still, you are not developing your fighting skills (positioning, angles, timing, defense, strategy, etc.). Also, I think it goes against CMA principles, per C.J.W.:
windwalker wrote:I think its hard to talk about “bag” work with those who have not cultivated the skill sets from a CMA perspective.
They will always end up comparing it and thinking that what is done is equal to or amounts to the same type of training done for the same reasons by western sports.
It's not, it's different done for reasons based on a different set of ideas.
C.J.W. wrote:If all you do is whack the heck out of it like an average boxer or a kickboxer and try to apply that same primal aggression in fighting, then IMO, it has little to do with CMA and runs counter to its principles.
The heavy bag is not just for throwing punches. Just throwing hard powerful punches is not what the heavy bag is for. The heavy bag is for actually simulating boxing as close as you can. In every aspect, with every move, every punch that's delivered, you’re trying your best in your own mind to simulate boxing:
In your own logic, before saying it's "different," based on different ideas, isn’t it better to have an accurate understanding of western ideas, too? A more fruitful discussion can be had from the beginning, with a more accurate understanding of both perspectives.
marvin8 wrote:windwalker wrote:
I think its hard to talk about “bag” work with those who have not cultivated the skill sets from a CMA perspective.
They will always end up comparing it and thinking that what is done is equal to or amounts to the same type of training done for the same reasons by western sports.
It's not, it's different done for reasons based on a different set of ideas.
We had bags hanging filled with gravel, we used slicing motions on them with our forearms
developing what we called cutting hand and cutting arm. In the beginning due to the gravel
ones arms would often bleed from the training, in time the skin and bone would toughen.
One would would be then be able to cut, and those it was used on understood what cutting
meant.
I think, you're describing hand conditioning, not fighting skills. If you are standing still, you are not developing your fighting skills (positioning, angles, timing, defense, strategy, etc.). Also, I think it goes against CMA principles, per C.J.W.:![]()
Transitioning from defense to offense, as one movement, is an important skill, as is using peng, lu, ji, an.
Patrick wrote:Starting at 1:40, some example from yi quan.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_RcAr8Qi1s
windwalker wrote:wouldn't it be better to consider that some might know and are speaking from experience.
Worked with many boxers in my time, one of the gyms I trained in was preparing one of the teachers for a full contact match back in the 70s,
I am well aware of their training methods and reasoning .
Its different.
If you feel its not I would suggest following your own
advice and find out why by joining a traditional CMA gym.
marvin8 wrote:C.J.W. misrepresented the western idea of working the heavy bag:C.J.W. wrote:If all you do is whack the heck out of it like an average boxer or a kickboxer and try to apply that same primal aggression in fighting, then IMO, it has little to do with CMA and runs counter to its principles.
grzegorz wrote:A short brief one with a dude who looks like me, which is why I am sharing it.
And Val's ballistic striking.
I am sure there are CMA people doing sort of thing but I am not so sure it is being taught to the general public and on a heavy bag.
Bao wrote:You can strike at your opponent's guard from a fixed position. There are a lot of methods to attack the striking arms or when they are guarding. This is an attacking, striking method you can develop on bags. Here I see not much difference from using a bag to practice other kind of striking power.
C.J.W. wrote:
If all you do is whack the heck out of it like an average boxer or a kickboxer and try to apply that same primal aggression in fighting, then IMO, it has little to do with CMA and runs counter to its principles. With IMA in particular, many of the things we practice are the opposite of what others typically do and expect.
For instance, I personally prefer letting the bag hit ME instead of me hitting it.
Bao wrote: A bag is not very useful for practicing "positioning, angles, timing, defense,".
The heavy bag is not just for throwing punches. Just throwing hard powerful punches is not what the heavy bag is for. The heavy bag is for actually simulating boxing as close as you can. In every aspect, with every move, every punch that's delivered, you’re trying your best in your own mind to simulate boxing.
Bao wrote:marvin8 wrote:Transitioning from defense to offense, as one movement, is an important skill, as is using peng, lu, ji, an.Bao wrote:I have no idea how to practice peng, lu, ji and an on a bag. Maybe someone could teach me? ...![]()
Bao wrote:I prefer working with a partner holding a sturdy kicking protection, someone that can judge and comment on what he feel that you are strong or weak. The thing is that if you work with IMA, you sometimes work with quite different mechanics than many other arts. We work with coordination and posture in a very detailed way. You can't just "try to hit harder". You need to learn how to coordinate all small details while remembering "song" and supporting the body correctly on impact. But sometimes we forget small details on posture, movement and transition. It's hard to judge yourself when working alone, you can get stuck from messing up details or food yourself that you do it better than you do. But he will feel very clearly when everything works or when something is wrong. Together you can help each other figure out problems, how to do things even better etc.
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