The Dan Tian

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:01 am

littlepanda wrote:
Dai Zhi Qiang wrote:
Dantian though in DXYQ is an actual physical thing, you can see it and feel it.

Jon



In DXYQ, dantian is rotated when one contracts and expands i.e. when the body is in movement. I would like to know if a DXYQ practitioner can stand still and rotate the dantian independently. What role does intent play here?

.



DING, DING, DING. We have a winner!!!

Here's the quote that started this discussion:

what i am talking about are powered helix. which means that the coils are created by dantain rotation.


IF the dan tian is the energetic center, a point, "the place to store energy", "had nothing to do with muscle development... It's just a tiny spot, a place in your body where you store essence and turn essence into Qi", what is "rotating"? In other words, when someone speaks of "dan tian rotation", what does that mean, exactly, what are they "rotating" and about what are they rotating it?

Since rotation is a scientific term, here's a description of what that means, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation:

Mathematically, a rotation is a rigid body movement which, unlike a translation, keeps a point fixed. This definition applies to rotations within both two and three dimensions (in a plane and in space, respectively.)

All rigid body movements are rotations, translations, or combinations of the two.

A rotation is simply a progressive radial orientation to a common point. That common point lies within the axis of that motion. The axis is 90 degrees perpendicular to the plane of the motion. If the axis of the rotation lies external of the body in question then the body is said to orbit.


(Those familiar with my first video will note that in the video, motion is described in terms of open/close, translation and rotation. A single-word term for open/close was too obscure to be in most peoples' vocabulary. The human body is "semi-rigid".)
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:51 am

The title of the thread reads "The" Dantian; so, it might be helpful to simply include the word "physical" from the beginning. And, physical implies the application of the laws of physics since this dantian is a physical structure and has a physical effect. It wouldn't necessarily be a muscle, but it would have to include muscles. The distinction between muscular and non-muscular movement would make an interesting discussion in terms of explaining how the physical dantian moves or is moved.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:09 am

Steve James wrote:The title of the thread reads "The" Dantian; so, it might be helpful to simply include the word "physical" from the beginning.


As commonly discussed here, for example, people usually refer to "the dan tian" and "rotation of the dan tian".

Depending upon the tradition, there are three dan tians, upper, middle and lower. What people are generally referring to, here, is the lower, where, in Daoist practices, jin is converted to qi. (In Feng Ziqiang's teachings, it is the middle dan tian.) As we've seen in this discussion, some suggest that this is "the dan tian" being discussed - where qi is stored, the "field of elixir", cinnabar, etc. Others suggest that what is being discussed is the physical "stuff" of the abdomen. Some suggest that the physical "stuff" isn't "the dan tian" and should be called something else. By starting with a title of "The Physical Dan Tian", one begs the question while failing to recognize that different people are talking about different things in different contexts.

The distinction between muscular and non-muscular movement would make an interesting discussion in terms of explaining how the physical dantian moves or is moved.


Go for it.
Last edited by charles on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:29 am

Well, my point was that "the" dantian is a misnomer if there are three. But, I knew that people are referring to a physical thing that they call the dantian. It's still unclear whether all are speaking of the same physical thing unless there can at least be a consensus on it as a physical thing. It's not the same as trying to describe an intangible, energetic or theoretical point or region.

I've seen and felt people who have and use the physical dantian, and they can always describe it physically. Personally, I don't put much effort into it at all. So, I'm really interested in the physical descriptions that those who do emphasize it can provide.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:16 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, my point was that "the" dantian is a misnomer if there are three.


Probably four, if one includes the "physical" one. In many practices, the lower of the three "energetic" ones is the one of primary interest, making it primarily two, one physical reference and one energetic. When people refer to "storing qi in the dan tian", it is the lower energetic one to which they refer. That's not to be confused with "sinking qi to the dan tian" that is primarily a physical action.

It's still unclear whether all are speaking of the same physical thing unless there can at least be a consensus on it as a physical thing.


That was part of the point of this discussion: that one term is used to mean different things in different contexts. Kinda like the term "qi".

So, I'm really interested in the physical descriptions that those who do emphasize it can provide.


As Dai Zhi Qiang pointed out, for those who engage in the practice sufficiently, it is a physical ball of "stuff" looking a little pregnant, but more focal. Some refer to it as a "qi ball", delving further into the confusion, since that physical development is not the result of "qi cultivation" such as sitting meditation.

Dai Zhi Qiang wrote:A DXYQ practitioners dan tian is round and inflated like a ball and should be able to freely rotate in several directions.
Last edited by charles on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:16 pm

As Dai Zhi Qiang pointed out, for those who engage in the practice sufficiently, it is a physical ball of "stuff" looking a little pregnant, but more focal.


Let me clarify. It would be interesting for those who engage in the practice to describe it on a deeper physical level. It's not necessary to do so. It'd just be interesting to hear.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Finny on Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:33 pm

Bao wrote:
Finny wrote:
Is there a need to be so absolutist and dogmatic?

Is dantian ONLY a term from daoist practice? Because we have numerous examples here of the term being used in CIMA practice.. is that 'wrong'? Could both not be 'correct'? ie could there not be both a 'daoist' 'energetic' 'conceptual' dantian, and a physical, developed anatomical dantian that is located around the exact spot the 'conceptual' dantian is located?

If a Dai practitioner states what Jon did above, is it necessarily wrong?


IMHO it's not really a question of being dogmatic or not. And I am sorry if it seems so or if I come of like that. The problem, IMO, is the confusion around certain concepts, the confusing nature of these things. Having an own way, an own opinion on how things work is certainly more than ok. It means that these concepts were developed in a practical manner and everyone should have their own ways to describe what they have developed from their own standpoint inside their own art. What concerns me is that when people enlighten certain things they tend to disregard other things. Personally, I love to hear and read about how things work in different styles. But IMHO, you should also understand the origin of the terms and concepts you use. If you just replace a meaning with something else, you lose something valuable and useful that other people have discovered. So even if you have your own opinion about Dantian and use the term differently than the original meaning of the term, you should still understand what was originally meant with Dantian and what is generally meant by Dantian. IMHO, if you don't understand the origin of a concept, you should not use the term, or at least you should acknowledge that you don't. I would like to see different ideas and concepts living side by side, and preferably distinguished by different names. It's easier that way because you always end up putting in values into words from your own ideas of a concept. Chinese tend to use a word or a term in many different ways depending on context. But western languages just doesn't work the same way, so for us it's, IMHO, better to distinguish things by different labels.



Hey no worries, of course it's ok to have your own opinion - that's kinda the point of my question. Your position seemed to be dismissive of a variety of different uses of the term.

I would disagree that "western languages just don't work that way".. I think they work exactly that way, but it's a small thing, happy to agree to disagree.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby yfaway on Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:55 pm

I am also more interested in the physical description of what it is, how does it manifest and what are the development milestones.

IMO, the physical rotations in the dantien/lower abdomen area is a common characteristic of all internal styles. However it seems to be more dominant in styles that emphasize waist/spinal rotation. I was talking to a longtime Wu Taichi instructor, he doesn't have same rotation feeling as I do; neither does he care much about it. Wu style, at least the Eddie Wu line, is all about hip turning.

The physical look is clear (chi belly, big or small, but the abdomen area always look pretty round). The methods to get the initial rotations going is also clear and are numerous. Some styles intentionally work to get there; for others, it is a side affect of relaxation and full body coordination. We all hear story about high masters able to generate force by initiating the rotations inside the dantien area. I am not there, and frankly I do not know how to get there. I just feel the rotations in different axis as I move around; they come with loud external noise when the body is more relaxed.

I would love to hear from experienced practitioners on:

1. Definition of dantien development at the beginner, intermediate, and advance levels.
2. How long till they get to each level?
3. What need to be done to move from one level to the next? Does it just happens as one's body is more relaxed and connected, or are there specific exercises?
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:22 pm

I am also more interested in the physical description of what it is, how does it manifest and what are the development milestones.


What is it that the many here feel can be done with the "dantian" that would different it from someone who did not use this method?

We all hear story about high masters able to generate force by initiating the rotations inside the dantien area.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDP3sfJCuI

He talks about the stages and why, when a student should start thinking about "dantian" He talks of body alignment, correct body alignment what this means, how its done and why its done.

one should ask them selves what happens when the right posture is achieved, IME many of the questions asked here would be answered.
Some have mentioned the time requirement. This is a common Chinese way of saying its going to take awhile, and not to worry about it.
It should not be taken as a literal meaning as some have done.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:38 pm

windwalker wrote:What is it that the many here feel can be done with the "dantian" that would different it from someone who did not use this method?


That's an excellent question.

Different styles and substyles train "the dan tian" differently. It isn't a single method. But, the question still holds.

In Chen style, the methods - there are different methods in different sub-styles of Chen - are the mechanism by which the style coordinates the parts of the body in movement, including generation of force (i.e. fa jin). It's how the style is done and can't properly be separated from the style, along the lines of leaving the sugar out of a recipe for cookies: without the sugar, it isn't really going to be the same cookie.

A very good video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDP3sfJCuI

He talks about the stages and why, when a student should start thinking about "dantian" He talks of body alignment, correct body alignment what this means, how its done and why its done.

one should ask them selves what happens when the right posture is achieved, IME many of the questions asked here would be answered.


I entirely agree.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby jaime_g on Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:22 am

Some examples of physical work on dan tian

Chen Zhonghua from Practical method



Chen yu student



Xinyi Liuhe


There are many approaches to this physical work. Some exercises are common between many methods, some are particular to one style or school...One thing is the training to create, morph, and rotate the dantian; another is the usage the dantien

Not everything is the same, but the training is palpable, tangible, and physical.

Having a dantian or being building a dantian doesnt mean that you are a good fighter. You have to fight to achieve that.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Patrick on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:24 am

Is there a relation between rolling your belly, which is primarily done by controlling your breathing, and power output?
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Bao on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:36 am

So called Dantian exercises are interesting and most of them probably great practice. Though as clips above and these below, I still see very little connection to internal Dantian development. I can't really understand why people call something they externalise "internal practice". Most of it is more or less like yoga practice. Nothing wrong with that.

Internal Dantian practice is things like wuji standing, practicing how to breath naturally and relax.
What's important in IMA is internal movement, internal strength, and not external. All of the clips shown here in this thread though belong to "waidan", not "Neidan". By this waidan kind of practice, you'll develop Houtian Qi (post-natal). Not Xiantian (pre-natal) Qi that masters like Sun Lutang wrote about and claimed is the goal for all IMA and neidan practice. SO what is the goal for YOUR practice? External strength or building internal health? Maybe both?

Patrick wrote:Is there a relation between rolling your belly, which is primarily done by controlling your breathing, and power output?



He Jinghan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQoXS4GwZvs



Some Chen guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJA3imDwWos
Last edited by Bao on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:47 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Patrick on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:51 am

What we can see in these videos is that they can bounce something from the belly when they belly inflates quickly. So how does this transfer to the structure of the body?
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Bao on Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:02 am

Patrick wrote:What we can see in these videos is that they can bounce something from the belly when they belly inflates quickly. So how does this transfer to the structure of the body?


Good question 8-)
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