windwalker wrote:Thanks for an insightful and well reasoned "discussion"
always good
I suspect we probably agree on more then what it may seem..
Indeed, thanks to you too.
Plus I should really get on with some work!!
windwalker wrote:Thanks for an insightful and well reasoned "discussion"
always good
I suspect we probably agree on more then what it may seem..
cloudz wrote:"connection" too gets mixed in with that use of "peng" I think. If your posture is connected up people say it's peng (jin). The water and hose analogy is a good one here. Your tai chi postures should all have that feeling, they should all have that connected springy elastic feel. People call that peng I think, and they say (correctly) that you should have this quality throughout.
cloudz wrote:I would have thought the Classics wouldn't leave out such a description of peng as it relates to the body and its posture, feeling etc. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that feeling and body state is covered by the descriptions and uses of the words Yi and Qi and perhaps more besides.
cloudz wrote:windwalker wrote:Thanks for an insightful and well reasoned "discussion"
always good
I suspect we probably agree on more then what it may seem..
Indeed, thanks to you too.
Plus I should really get on with some work!!
I find learning or relearning taiji in this way quite interesting. My own Chinese inner biases prevented me from understanding taiji because I'm Chinese . When you explain things in English using physics it removes me from my own inner Chinese bias and makes me examine them in a different way using science methods and understanding... .Something I wouldn't normally do for things from my own culture.
This way makes the old sayings more understandable, testable and repeatable.
robert wrote:cloudz wrote:"connection" too gets mixed in with that use of "peng" I think. If your posture is connected up people say it's peng (jin). The water and hose analogy is a good one here. Your tai chi postures should all have that feeling, they should all have that connected springy elastic feel. People call that peng I think, and they say (correctly) that you should have this quality throughout.
I agree with this and and would tend to call it a core skill. As far as I know this usage of peng jin is fairly recent - since the 1950s or so.cloudz wrote:I would have thought the Classics wouldn't leave out such a description of peng as it relates to the body and its posture, feeling etc. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that feeling and body state is covered by the descriptions and uses of the words Yi and Qi and perhaps more besides.
I agree, you tend to see things like when one part moves there is no part that does not move; when one part is still, there is no part that is not still, with all parts of the body linked as if threaded together or they'll talk about one qi (yi qi). That is my interpretation of those sayings ...
windwalker wrote:cloudz wrote:windwalker wrote:Thanks for an insightful and well reasoned "discussion"
always good
I suspect we probably agree on more then what it may seem..
Indeed, thanks to you too.
Plus I should really get on with some work!!
I think this is your real work as it is for many of us here,,,
One of my students here, a professor who teachers robotics made this comment today during our session.
Thought it was insightful and never quite thought of it in this way.I find learning or relearning taiji in this way quite interesting. My own Chinese inner biases prevented me from understanding taiji because I'm Chinese . When you explain things in English using physics it removes me from my own inner Chinese bias and makes me examine them in a different way using science methods and understanding... .Something I wouldn't normally do for things from my own culture.
This way makes the old sayings more understandable, testable and repeatable.
He went on to suggest that maybe me with no to limited Chinese language skill, in learning from a teacher who could speak no English
was also forced to abandon my own inner biases allowing me to feel and work out what I was feeling in interacting with my teacher.
Having studied taiji for quite some time before meeting my present teacher.
Upon meeting him I was forced to abandon many of my own thoughts and ideas of the time in light of new experiences
that tended to either confirm or contradict what I thought I knew, allowing me to know what I knew and understand what I did not.
cloudz wrote:
As far as Jin and the Chinese terms goes I'm wondering what leads to that body state most readily and I think I'm settling on Chousi jin (pulling silk). As it feels to me to have the effect of connecting the structure, simply put.
Just trying to KISS.
cloudz wrote:
I was also pondering last night that we westerners also use the term structure quite a lot. That too seems to be describing the same phenomena too as that use of "peng", more or less. Structure is composed of the materials the connection of them and the placement (allignment).
Just trying to KISS.
robert wrote:cloudz wrote:
I was also pondering last night that we westerners also use the term structure quite a lot. That too seems to be describing the same phenomena too as that use of "peng", more or less. Structure is composed of the materials the connection of them and the placement (allignment).
Just trying to KISS.
Personally when I think of structure I tend to think of something rigid, like a chair, bar stool, or building, not an exercise ball or a hose filled with water. Looking thru youtube for examples of peng jin I saw a lot of what I would call structure. The people demonstrating showed structure, but I thought they were too stiff to say they had peng. They may be on the right path, but I don't think they've crossed the threshold. I understand that you are using the term correctly, I just think it can be problematic.
I'm a big fan of KISS!
robert wrote:cloudz wrote:
I was also pondering last night that we westerners also use the term structure quite a lot. That too seems to be describing the same phenomena too as that use of "peng", more or less. Structure is composed of the materials the connection of them and the placement (allignment).
Just trying to KISS.
Personally when I think of structure I tend to think of something rigid, like a chair, bar stool, or building, not an exercise ball or a hose filled with water. Looking thru youtube for examples of peng jin I saw a lot of what I would call structure. The people demonstrating showed structure, but I thought they were too stiff to say they had peng. They may be on the right path, but I don't think they've crossed the threshold. I understand that you are using the term correctly, I just think it can be problematic.
I'm a big fan of KISS!
SONGS OF THE EIGHT POSTURES
Attributed to T'an Meng-hsien
as researched by Lee N. Scheele
The Song of Peng
What is the meaning of Peng energy?
It is like the water supporting a moving boat.
First sink the ch'i to the tan-t'ien,
then hold the head as if suspended from above.
The entire body is filled with springlike energy,
opening and closing in a very quick moment.
Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds of force,
he can be uprooted and made to float without difficulty.
Steve James wrote: The Chens did have some texts, too, but (iirc) Chen Xin's "Illustrated" does not mention "peng" at all, but focuses on "Chan ssu jin."
My argument is only that the phrases that most people know when it comes to tcc come via scholarly practitioners of Yang influenced styles.
So, we're forced to struggle with analogies.
Some of us remember the Peng Wars very well, and don't want to relive them.
But, here's the description of "peng" that appeared earliest in the Classics (afawk).SONGS OF THE EIGHT POSTURES
Attributed to T'an Meng-hsien
as researched by Lee N. Scheele
The Song of Peng
What is the meaning of Peng energy?
It is like the water supporting a moving boat.
First sink the ch'i to the tan-t'ien,
then hold the head as if suspended from above.
The entire body is filled with springlike energy,
opening and closing in a very quick moment.
Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds of force,
he can be uprooted and made to float without difficulty.
This and many other of the "Classics" can be found here http://www.scheele.org/lee/classics.html I'd also recommend all of Doug Wile's books on earlier texts.
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