robert wrote:Steve James wrote:Ya know, I wonder what if anything the old Yang masters had to say about chansi jin in Yang style. Otoh, I'd say that spirals are the result of rotation and translation --and I think that the "13" whatevers comprise that.
Number 9 from YCF's Ten Important Points
Move with continuity. As to the external schools, their chin (jin) is the Latter Heaven brute chin (jin). Therefore it is finite. There are connections and breaks. During the breaks the old force is exhausted and the new force has not yet been born. At these moments it is very easy for others to take advantage. T'ai Chi Ch'uan uses I and not li. From beginning to end it is continuous and not broken. It is circular and again resumes. It revolves and has no limits. The original Classics say it is "like a great river rolling on unceasingly." and that the circulation of the chin (jin) is "drawing silk from a cocoon " They all talk about being connected together.
From http://www.scheele.org/lee/classics.html
Steve James wrote:Well, I was curious about two things: one, whether Yang tcc used the terminology "chansi jin." Hopefully, we aren't arguing whether Yang tcc "has" chansi jin or utilizes spiral energy. (I'd say that it has to). But, there isn't a specific "shi" (posture, position, disposition, energy, or "jin") called chan si. As I said, it's not a matter of whether it exists. The point was made in terms of Dan's citation of Feng: i.e., that chansi jin was the central jin, and that --as Dan and Appledog expressed (iinm)-- that peng jin and the other jins were implicit in chansi.
Appledog wrote:Both kinds of peng come out of silk reeling. If you hold peng jin and move with it that isn't silk reeling, unless you want to say it is silk reeling as a technicality because you understand the peng to have come out of the silk reeling in the first place (therefore you are silk reeling). However that amount of mental gymnastics tells me that there is some kind of confusion here. Silk reeling itself is the core jin, which is only called a sort of peng jin because it causes actual peng jin to be manifest everywhere.
For core skills and strengths I would view silk reeling as a sort of stage two skill, peng as stage three, there are other things which need to be trained first. If you want to talk about core or fundamental skills/strengths in tai chi I think we should first discuss stuff like song (relaxed) or lightness (qing) because these things are a prerequisite to getting silk reeling in the first place.
Appledog wrote:If you stop moving the silk reeling doesn't disappear, it's still there. You just aren't moving.
Appledog wrote:If you stop moving the silk reeling doesn't disappear, it's still there. You just aren't moving. This is why Yang style can still have ward-off without manifesting it physically, but it does not mean that straight energy is spiral energy.
Appledog wrote:Yeah I am pretty sure we disagree, I'm having a difficult time understanding your terminology. Does your way of applying this peng work in push hands? I'd be interested in hearing your experiences applying this in push hands, I think that would solve some of the difficulties we are having with terminology.
Appledog wrote:That just means it's internal, not that it is Taijiquan. You could be talking about any number of arts. For example below you seem to present song as the core jing and not peng.
Appledog wrote:I'm almost certain you're talking about opening the joints and not peng, because you said you can be fang song without having peng but you cannot have peng without being song.
Appledog wrote:I'm almost certain you're talking about opening the joints and not peng, because you said you can be fang song without having peng but you cannot have peng without being song. Therefore you are saying song, which comes mainly out of standing and other practice is a prerequisite to peng. So why don't we just say that song is the core jing of taijiquan?
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