Ashura wrote:Ueshiba and Sokaku had different personalities and views, those differences are reflected in their respective techniques and there is nothing wrong about it. Ueshiba chose very clearly, for whatever reason, to sever ties with Sokaku and Daito-ryu and this is what he did, and he did that rather early.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Ueshiba did not sever ties "rather early". Ueshiba was associated with Takeda from 1915 to around 1937. 22 years. In 1937, Ueshiba was 54 years old.
As for personalities and views ... Ueshiba repeated what he had learned under Takeda. See Chris Li's article for references of the similar sayings of Sagawa, Horikawa, Ueshiba ... all via Takeda. Ueshiba was Takeda's favorite. We only have 1 person who said anything about Takeda and Omoto -- that was Tokimune who said his father "didn't like the Omoto religion very much". But, when those events transpired in 1922, Tokimune was 6 years old.
Ashura wrote:I have always been intrigued by this quote from Takeda Tokimune which is also relevant to the discussion:
Question: Did Sokaku go to Ayabe on Ueshiba Sensei´s invitation?
Actually, there were a number of people from the navy training at Mr Ueshiba´s dojo. All of the navy members had experience in sumo wrestling and were quite strong. Since Ueshiba would have had difficulty in handling such individuals he asked Sokaku Takeda Sensei to come. These men were huge, while Mr Ueshiba was smaller than me. I would imagine that he wasn´t able to pin them because he wasn´t using precise techniques. After all, it would be difficult using only aiki.
Another view of that:
Allen Beebe wrote:It should be noted that Takeda Tokimune supposes that the reverse is true: “Actually, there were a number of people from the navy training in Mr. Ueshiba’s dojo. All of the navy members had experience in sumo wrestling and were quite strong. Since Ueshiba would have had difficulty in handling such individuals he asked Takeda Sokaku Sensei to come. These men were huge, while Mr. Ueshiba was smaller than me. I would imagine that he wasn’t able to pin them because he wasn’t using precise techniques. After all, it would be difficult using only aiki.”
I think that Takeda Tokimune “imagines” incorrectly here for a couple of reasons: Ueshiba and Sagawa, for example, clearly point to their development of Aiki as being that which made their techniques unique, not the other way around. If it were as Takeda Tokimune asserted, there would be a rather lot of individuals easily handling “huge Sumotori” and the like today. Sadly, that clearly is NOT the case. While for Ueshiba and Sagawa it WAS the case, both of whom pointed to Aiki as “the difference that made the difference” for them.
One other reason I think Ueshiba learned Aiki from Takeda at this time is that, even though it is documented that Aiki existed in Daito Ryu prior to Takeda Sokaku’s visit to Ayabe, Ueshiba seems to only begin using the term from that point forward.
So, there are three people who disagree with how you're presenting Tokimune's words. We've presented mounds of research ...
Ashura wrote:Even when watching the first Ueshiba´s video, I already see some major differences with Daito-ryu. In this movie, Ueshiba is already using a lot of wide, circular movements. You notice how he throws his Uke rather far away from him while Daito-ryu advocates otoshi in order to keep the opponent under control and to pin him down.
Here's more research from Allen Beebe, who states that Ueshiba continued doing Daito ryu his entire life.
https://trueaiki.com/2016/12/25/aikido-daito/Further, if you're just going by techniques alone, John Driscoll covers that. He finds an 82% correlation.
http://kogenbudo.org/reflections-on-the-origin-of-ueshiba-moriheis-koshinage-the-relationship-of-daito-ryu-and-aikido-waza/And then more words from Allen Beebe
Allen Beebe wrote:According to Takuma Hisa, Ueshiba and Takeda taught the same things. The first books of the Soden are a record of what Ueshiba taught, which, if we are to believe Takuma Hisa are not different from what Takeda Sokaku taught. It is also easily seen that many of Soden techniques and Aikijujutsu Densho (later renamed Budo Renshu) techniques are found in Daito Ryu’s Hiden Mokuroku. Presumably the contents of Daito Ryu’s Hiden Mokuroku were, at some point, transmitted by Takeda Sokaku. It is also known that Ueshiba taught techniques from other Daito Ryu scrolls and also awarded students other Daito Ryu scrolls.
I find the statement that Ueshiba did not teach pinning with the legs curious, as I know and teach pinning with the legs. I suggest that the greater question is: When and, to whom, did he teach this. Also, such pins were for a particular purpose and only later did they become “show pieces.”
I heartily agree that these techniques are little seen in modern Aikido demonstrations. But having learned from someone who was present when they were being taught in Osaka, and taught them as well, it seems to me a bit risky to assert they no longer exist in Aikido.
The bottom line though is that, while it is patently obvious Ueshiba Morihei was firmly grounded in Daito Ryu, he didn’t hesitate to point out that the Way of Aiki is not to be found in techniques.
This fact, in my opinion, is a major blind spot for many, if not most, practitioners of both modern Daito Ryu and Aikido.
But that is just my opinion, and that opinion should come as no surprise when one considers the title of my blog!
Ueshiba stayed true to his Daito ryu roots and did not have "major differences". We've presented mounds of research ...
Unfortunately, if all you're going by is Modern Aikido, then you won't have access to the truth. Think not? Start doing the research. Below is a start...
Stan Pranin's work (get the back issue DVD):
http://aikidojournal.com/Chris Li's Sangenkai Blog:
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/Allen Beebe's Blog:
https://trueaiki.com/Ellis Amdur's books:
http://edgeworkbooks.com/dueling-with-o-sensei/http://edgeworkbooks.com/hidden-in-plain-sight/