Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

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Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby Yeung on Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:07 am

The name Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972) is well-known in the Chinese Taijiquan community for his eight unique principles of Taijiquan which was published in the first chapter of Chen Shi Taijiquan (1963) and the following diagram from page 19 of his book should be known to everyone here:

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/silkr1.gif

His eight unique principles of Taijiquan is applicable to any style of Taijqian. From an article in the Jiangsu Provincial Archives:

http://www.dajs.gov.cn/art/2015/1/13/ar ... 62564.html

1. He was working in Beijing in 1912 and learned Taijiquan from Yang Jianhou (1839-1917)
2. He return to Beijing in 1922 and he learned the theories of Taijiquan from Yang Chengfu (1883-1936)
3. From 1928 he learnt from Chen Fake (1887-1957) for 10 years
4. He retired in 1957
5. He wrote the first three chapters of Chen Style Taijqian published in 1963
6. His later work was destroyed during the Cultural Revolution, and he was persecuted and passed away in 1972
7. He suggested that practitioners of Taijiquan should be versed with Yang Style before learning Chen Style

From section 4 of his second principle, he emphasized on the importance of getting rid of stiffness before the development of Peng or Bing Jin.

Is there an English translation of these eight unique principles of Taijiquan?
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:39 pm

A portion of it can be found here: http://yangfamilytaichi.com/articles/silk-reeling/
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby amor on Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:57 pm

charles wrote:A portion of it can be found here: http://yangfamilytaichi.com/articles/silk-reeling/


In that link above from yang family taichi they say this about shun and ni regarding the palm turning:

According to qualities and capabilities, Tai Chi Chuan silk reeling energy can be divided into two basic types. The first is ‘forward’ (shun) silk reeling where the palms rotate from facing inward to facing outward. Within this group almost all consist of Peng (ward off) energy (see the solid lines in figure 1). The second type is ‘backward’ (ni) silk reeling where the palms rotate from facing outward to facing inward


mike sigman on his blog says its opposite : http://mikesigman.blogspot.co.uk/2013/0 ... _6229.html


The two opposing windings affect the way the whole body twists, but we can basically describe the windings as something like “come to” or “Shun” and “go against” or “Ni”. In other words, if you hold your hand palm-inward in front of your face and then push it out away from your face so that it’s palm-outward, the arm just spiraled in a “Ni” manner. Bringing your hand back, palm-inward, in front of your face will be spiraling in the “Shun” manner.



mike sigmans description of shun/ni differs from the author in the yangfamily taichi link but Im not just showing this because its mike, authors elsewhere ive seen also agree with mikes version.

So which one is the correct description here, any ideas?
Last edited by amor on Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:46 am

Yeung wrote: the following diagram from page 19 of his book should be known to everyone here:

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/silkr1.gif


Image

Since "this image should be known to everyone here", I'm curious what those here think the image means.
Last edited by charles on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby amor on Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:24 pm

charles wrote:
Yeung wrote: the following diagram from page 19 of his book should be known to everyone here:

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/silkr1.gif


Image

To the best of my knowledge, the image, above, first appeared in Chen Xin's book. Since "this image should be known to everyone here", I'm curious what those here think the image means.


I'll have a go then. Its shun and ni, counterclockwise and clockwise rotations of the palm. When one palm is Shun the other is Ni to maintain yin/yang separation such as in opening/closing of the body and to maintain the 'circularity' in movement or moving from the central axis.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:47 pm

Tom wrote:Charles, the image of the hands referenced above is not in Chen Xin's book. The first time it appears is in Shen Jiazhen's book as cited.


Thanks for the correction, Tom.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby robert on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:03 pm

amor wrote:mike sigmans description of shun/ni differs from the author in the yangfamily taichi link but Im not just showing this because its mike, authors elsewhere ive seen also agree with mikes version.

So which one is the correct description here, any ideas?

I don't know the answer, but I think it's an interesting discussion. If you look at the link that Charles provided you see this

As we have already explained, movements must be like silk reeling, but how in our actual movements are we to realize this theory? In fact it’s quite ordinary and simple: within the requirements for the entire movement, as you move, the palms rotate from facing inward to outward or from facing outward to inward, 2 causing them to form a shape like the Tai Chi symbol (see figure 1).

The description that the palms rotate inward and outward seems pretty clear. Does the use of the terms shun and ni add any clarity? Why not just say inward and outward?

Here is an excerpt from Chen Xin's book

Coiling power (Chan Jin) is all over the body. Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan), which both appear once (one) moves. There is one (kind of coiling) when left hand is in front and right hand is behind; (or when) right hand is in front and left hand is behind; this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement). There is also one (coiling) that closes the inside of the left (side of the body) and the back of the right (side of the body), and another which uses the through-the-back power (Fanbei Jin) and closes towards the back. All of them should be moved naturally according to the (specific) postures.

He also says Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan). I like simplicity. He also says this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement) - he equates closing with shun; that agrees with what Mike said.

Chen Shi Taijiquan Tushuo was written between 1908 - 1919, are there earlier references to the terms shun and ni regarding chan si jin?
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby GrahamB on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:22 pm

In the picture the diagram on the left is for the left hand and the diagram on the right for the right hand. The numbers are significant as the points where you ("the body") change from open to close and vice versa.

The diagram is very accurate in terms of hand positions illustrated. Somebody should make a flick book or a gif of the diagram as an animation showing only one hand moving on it's progression. That would make an even better illustration.

Start with 10 minutes a day - making a big version of the circle then as you progress make it smaller and smaller. Get the weight shifts correct as well.

I wouldn't say this was a good starting point for a beginner as it's pretty difficult. I'd start with a simple circle.
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:27 am

It would be intersesting to see someone do the exercise that correlates to that diagram.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:14 am

I was actually thinking of doing a video on it, but then I thought - why bother? It would just be a load of people telling me how my shit is fake ;D
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:54 am

I've copied and pasted the image so I'll have a play with the exercise myself.. Never done one like this before; plenty of circling variations, but not the taiji diagram.. Should be interesting for taiji geeks everywhere! lol
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby amor on Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:13 am

robert wrote:
The description that the palms rotate inward and outward seems pretty clear. Does the use of the terms shun and ni add any clarity? Why not just say inward and outward?

Here is an excerpt from Chen Xin's book

Coiling power (Chan Jin) is all over the body. Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan), which both appear once (one) moves. There is one (kind of coiling) when left hand is in front and right hand is behind; (or when) right hand is in front and left hand is behind; this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement). There is also one (coiling) that closes the inside of the left (side of the body) and the back of the right (side of the body), and another which uses the through-the-back power (Fanbei Jin) and closes towards the back. All of them should be moved naturally according to the (specific) postures.

He also says Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan). I like simplicity. He also says this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement) - he equates closing with shun; that agrees with what Mike said.

Chen Shi Taijiquan Tushuo was written between 1908 - 1919, are there earlier references to the terms shun and ni regarding chan si jin?


Thanks Rob. You're right in that which one you give the name to depending on whether the palm rotates in or out-wards doesn't matter, what matters is the effect. For me I'd say Ni (palm outwards) has a pushing and opens the back but closes down the front on the side your doing it. Shun (palm inwards) has a pulling and closing action of the back but opens up the chest on the side your doing it.
It''s a difficult topic imo especially when you get into the energetic flows these movements cause and the many permutations that occur through out forms, no one except a taichi 'master' could tell you this.
There's not much on the rsf about this either understandably so. Not much on yt either but I found this excerpt from Chen Zhongua which shows a little:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADxV3GQwI5I
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 am

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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:01 am

great, thankyou!
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:32 am

amor wrote:It''s a difficult topic imo especially when you get into the energetic flows these movements cause and the many permutations that occur through out forms, no one except a taichi 'master' could tell you this. There's not much on the rsf about this either understandably so.


Then here's our chance to add something on the topic to RSF.

I'm not a master, but it isn't really all that complicated. Parts of the body can be twisted in one direction until their range of motion is reached - twisting beyond that point causes injury. Parts of the body can be twisted in the opposite direction until their range of motion is reached - twisting beyond that point causes injury. To distinguish between the two directions, we'll give them different names. We can call one direction "positive" or "ni" and the other, it's opposite, "negative" or "shun". (You can chose other labels/names if you prefer. For the purpose of this discussion, I don't want to get into the meanings of the Chinese terms "shun" and "ni".)

People often discuss the direction of twisting related to the hands/arms, but many of the body parts can be twisted and their direction of twisting identified as "positive" or "ni" and "negative" or "shun".

If you hold both arms in front of you with both palms facing up and then rotate the palms to face down, both are performing the same (ni) twisting action. However, one is twisting clockwise while the other is twisting counter-clockwise. Hence, the common English language translations for "shun" and "ni" as clockwise and counterclockwise are of little use.


Not much on yt either but I found this excerpt from Chen Zhongua which shows a little:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADxV3GQwI5I


Although he unfortunately resorts to the English language translation as "clockwise" and "counter-clockwise", CZH points out, as did Shen Jiazhen, most ("all") actions involve twisting one way (ni) or the other (shun).

With a single arm/hand, one can turn that hand (forearm from the elbow) so that it rotates from facing outwards to facing inwards (shun) or one can do the opposite, turn the hand so that rotates from facing inwards to facing outwards (ni). If these two actions are performed successively, each in an arc, a circular action can be performed comprised of two arcs. One arc is shun twisting, one arc is ni twisting: each circular action is comprised of two halves, one of which is shun the other is ni.

The circular action of the arm/hand can have a ni rotation at the top of the circle, as the hand moves upward and outwards, followed by a shun rotation as the hand moves down and in. Alternatively, one can reverse the direction of movement and have a shun rotation at the top of circular action - the hand coming inward and downward - and have a ni rotation at the bottom of the circular action - the hand moving outward and upward. For identification purposes, one can refer to the first action - ni/out at the top of the circle, shun/in at the bottom of the circle - as a "positive" circle. The opposite direction - shun at the top of the circle and ni at the bottom of the circle - as a "negative" circle.

Shen's illustration of hands tracing a Taiji Diagram is an illustration of "positive" and "negative" circles/arcs and the "inflection" points at which the direction of rotation reverses. It is not clear to me whether or not Shen provided the illustration as a suggestion to practice moving the hands around a Taiji diagram, or just as an academic/philosophic way of describing the inflection points. I have not met any Chen style practitioner who engages in the practice of tracing Taiji diagrams with hands or legs. (It mostly seems to be something that non-Chen stylists do thinking that is what Chen stylists practice as "silk reeling".)

If one begins to consider what happens when one moves two arms at the same time, there are a number of common combinations and permutations, as follows:

Single Arm
1. right arm, positive circle
2. right arm, negative circle
3. left arm, positive circle
4. left arm, negative circle

Double Arm
1. Both arms positive circle
2. Both arms negative circle
3. Right arm positive circle, left arm negative circle
4. Left arm positive circle, right arm negative circle
5. Both arms positive circle, 180 degrees out of phase
6. Both arms negative circle, 180 degrees out of phase

Here, Zhu Tiancai demonstrates these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKnfapxdiX4

At least in Chen style, nearly every movement that involves the arms found in a Taijiquan form, application or push hands can be seen to be a one of these, or a minor variation of two basic circles, positive and negative. What matters, of course, is how the hands are motivated to change direction, the physical mechanics that produces that motion.
Last edited by charles on Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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