dedicated to the discussion of the chinese internal martial arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang, taijiquan, related arts, and anything else best discussed over a bottle of rum
All Chinese marital arts make use of "Jin", not just "internal" martial arts - here is some Wing Chun wisdom on the subject that's so clearly explained by the old master. You need to make sure subtiltes or captions or whatever they are called is on - might need to watch on a computer not a phone to get them.
In what context are you referring to the use of term Jin as an explanation of what is being shown?
As for structure - all this training starts with getting structure right so that development of connection to the rest of the body can happen. Without it nothing can even be started.
dspyrido wrote:In what context are you referring to the use of term Jin as an explanation of what is being shown?
"now let my force go to the ground,.... don't fight me by pulling up."
"now it's going down to his feet(i.e the ground)"
"if i use strength to push on him and he use strength to fight me."
"now pull up, and can you feel it in your shoulder? and this way the force can't go down to his feet."
As for structure - all this training starts with getting structure right so that development of connection to the rest of the body can happen. Without it nothing can even be started.
You need a basic stance, then you just need to relax, then channel their force to the ground. Oh and a lot of practice. You get good, then you can stand on one leg or on tip toes or wobble like a drunk and still do it.
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GrahamB wrote:All Chinese marital arts make use of "Jin", not just "internal" martial arts - here is some Wing Chun wisdom on the subject that's so clearly explained by the old master. You need to make sure subtiltes or captions or whatever they are called is on - might need to watch on a computer not a phone to get them.
What jin do you mean or what do you mean with jin? Dongjin? ting jin? pengjin? You can't use "jin" without another character. It's is a descriptional term and not a single idea or a homogenous concept.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog) - Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert - To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
So you take the easy way out when you can't or maybe don't care to explain what you meant?
He show a clever use of leverage and angles. If you want to call that jin it's up to you.
Good vid.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog) - Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert - To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Graham I think the point made is the generic use of the term jin does not translate to cover the many concepts tst is trying to impart. Jin has many variations & contextual uses. It's beyond my ability to translate it properly so I'll just focus on the points:
GrahamB wrote:"now let my force go to the ground,.... don't fight me by pulling up."
"now it's going down to his feet(i.e the ground)"
"if i use strength to push on him and he use strength to fight me."
"now pull up, and can you feel it in your shoulder? and this way the force can't go down to his feet."
What he is highlighting is the ability to get a ground line. Without the initial structure training it is impossible to achieve. But:
GrahamB wrote:You need a basic stance, then you just need to relax, then channel their force to the ground. Oh and a lot of practice. You get good, then you can stand on one leg or on tip toes or wobble like a drunk and still do it.
Sure its relatively easy to do the one legged pushing but it has limits that make alignment and structure important e.g. having an elbow stick out "incorrectly" means there is a greater emphasis on getting the ground line working right.
Further to this against a static slow push it's easy. Against a jerking sudden uproot or momentum then structure and adapting the structure to get the ground line working are vital.
And the other major one - how does a ground line work when being pushed up, left or right on the extended hand? The wc answer was let it go (because the ground line does not work) or get the elbow in the line and pull it in. This is where structure and angles once again are vital and supported by the relaxed structure TST talks about (sung is probably more relevant here) but it goes deeper because the use of the torso/physical lower dantien becomes a vital part in all of this.
But you are only highlighting ground line from the hands.
Try doing the "on the toes" method when someone is pushing & uprooting from your legs. Angles, structure and counterbalancing are vital.
Unfortunately there is no easy way to say, I think you're wrong about everything and you don't even understand the basics, and have wasted your life in internal martial arts However, that's the situation I find myself in when having to reply to the comments here, which puts me in a position I don't necessarily want to be in. Hence the face palm
Everyone is free to think what they want to think and practice what they want to practice - it's your life. But that includes me, too. So here's what I think:
The reality of the situation is that there is one Jin, from which all the others come. If you don't understand that then you've missed a big part of the puzzle. However, this is the situation that I see 99% of Chinese Martial Artists in anyway, so it's not like you're alone How can I say there is one jin? Trace all the different types of Jin back to the source of their power... where does it come from? The ground.
On a basic level we are animals standing upright on a planet under the force of gravity pushing down on us. We can power things in two basic ways - 1) using local muscle power to manipulate things, or 2) borrow the force of gravity (or an opponent) pushing down on us and bounce it back up from the solidity of the ground and do something with it. Number 2 is Jin.
Number 2 can be enhanced by various parts of the body 'bowing' or 'winding' etc... this is what the 'internal' arts specialise in, but all Chinese arts really make use of 2) to greater or lesser degrees.
Who else is showing this skill?
I head to YouTube and find random videos of martial arts:
It's good, I like it. He doesn't ever say "ground" or "Jin" but instead, he says something along the lines of standing in Yi Quan producing a "unified power"- with no explanation at all - but if you source that back where is his power coming from? Either it's magic beans and there's a beanstalk and a giant involved... or it's Jin from the ground...
Here's forum member Ashe doing a demo on Yi Li Quan at an Aikido dojo
Where is this force going? Once he's got it to the ground he breaks his structure in a variety of ways.
Whether you like these videos for their particulars or not (I'm sure you have issues with the particular way the Yi Quan guy does something, etc... ) that's not the point. The point is... Jin. I have no attachment to the word itself, just what the word is pointing to.
Peng Jin is using this force upwards, An Jin is using it downwards, Fa Jin is using it in an explosive attacking way, etc, on and on.
But let's find a real master... Mifune of Judo. Just watch him move - you can see it - complete connection to the ground at all times. He doesn't look like today's Judo people. He looks like that because he's continually using the power of the ground in a fast flowing dynamic way.
(And before you say it - He does these defences to throws where both his feet leave the ground, but how can he do this? and think about what he's doing - forming "one body" with the opponent, who is on the ground......)
Anyway, I've tried to convey my thought through the imperfect medium of text. I'm sure I've fucked up, but I had a go.
P.S. I was joking about wasting your life - nobody can really 'waste' anything and nothing is really a waste of time. lol.
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:28 am, edited 9 times in total.
I tried to argue in the past, that IP, JIN or whatever you want to call it, stems from force used where your own body´s stability (in all six directons) is not compromised. That is where the ground comes into play. Without a connection to the ground = no proper stability. In that sense IMA training is coordination or proprioception training.
First you exercise your senses/receptors etc. in standing exercises where your body learns his limits of his own range of stability by using small swaying movements. Then use the swaying motions to your advance. Extent your legs sligthly and push up the ground for power output in the front movement, sit down in the back movement to absorb the force into the ground. The same intention has to be learned than with a partner. How does my body react if I get pushed there? How can I absorb his force without compromising my own stability?
This is how (of course IMHO etc.) IMA differs from other arts. Other arts may use other forms of refinded power, but they give up the stability for other attributes (Speed, more absolute (?) power)
Really if that in the video is not IP then what is? No other concept makes remotely sense to me.
Last edited by Patrick on Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:04 am, edited 2 times in total.