dedicated to the discussion of the chinese internal martial arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang, taijiquan, related arts, and anything else best discussed over a bottle of rum
I am not actually aware of any fighter in pro MMA today without short range skill (elbow, knee, clich) and a good level of grappling. Even those with success with long range skills like those seen here like Roy Nelson are also masters of the short game (black belt BJJ)
I think the obvious point here is that the well rounded fighter is the bestter fighter. People like Mighty mouse, Cody Garbrand, Nate Diaz, Jon Jone etc are a prime examples of fighters who are dangerous at long range, mid, and close range.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me" Me
I am not actually aware of any fighter in pro MMA today without short range skill (elbow, knee, clich) and a good level of grappling. Even those with success with long range skills like those seen here like Roy Nelson are also masters of the short game (black belt BJJ).
I agree to a certain extent. However, Ronda Rousey (Olympic medalist in judo) and Heather Hardy (boxing champion) had superior short range skills, but lost. Greg Jackson and other good trainers come up with a game plan to beat short range specialist. Some example fights known to the MMA fans are Rousey vs Holm and Nunez vs Rousey.
he way I see it, it's very simple: A good long-range fighter can take out a short-range fighter before he has a chance to close the distance, while a good short-range fighter/grappler can close the distance on a long-range fighter and take him out first.
Neither fighting style is inherently superior to the other; it's about who's better at applying his chosen style, that's all.
Agreed .. to a point! However, and objective analysis of the availble techniuques and tactics in fighting would give us some things that work 'more' and some things that work 'less'.
The opponent does not know me; I alone know him. A good outside fighter will not box with a boxer nor grapple with a grappler. A good long range fighter does not need short range skills to beat a short range fighter, if he/she is good enough.
However, a short range fighter needs some long range skills to bridge the gap, against a "good" long range fighter (e.g., kicks, knees, footwork, etc.)
This bears out in MMA.
It also depends on the kind of fighting you expect to be doing. A bouncer or cop may want to control without unnecessary damage. Some people may need skills to survive a sucker punch/ambush attack. Others just need to buy enough distance and time to get their weapons into play.
On the subject of range in general, there's a lot more nuance than most people pay attention to. I know a couple of fighters who break arm range into fist, forearm, elbow, and body-to-body ranges. If you have the mechanics for it, you can do something similar with kicks, and there will of course be overlap between arm and leg ranges (and arm range will be extended by weapons, etc.) In that light, if long-arm styles claim an additional perspective or nuance on range, it probably couldn't hurt to consider what they have to offer.
marvin8 wrote:The opponent does not know me; I alone know him. A good outside fighter will not box with a boxer nor grapple with a grappler. A good long range fighter does not need short range skills to beat a short range fighter, if he/she is good enough.
However, a short range fighter needs some long range skills to bridge the gap, against a "good" long range fighter (e.g., kicks, knees, footwork, etc.)
This bears out in MMA.
It also depends on the kind of fighting you expect to be doing. A bouncer or cop may want to control without unnecessary damage. Some people may need skills to survive a sucker punch/ambush attack. Others just need to buy enough distance and time to get their weapons into play.
Yes, if one is ambushed, taken to the ground by surprise or in a phone booth, the short range specialist would likely win the fight. I was thinking in situations where one has enough space to control distance.
Bhassler wrote:On the subject of range in general, there's a lot more nuance than most people pay attention to. I know a couple of fighters who break arm range into fist, forearm, elbow, and body-to-body ranges. If you have the mechanics for it, you can do something similar with kicks, and there will of course be overlap between arm and leg ranges (and arm range will be extended by weapons, etc.) In that light, if long-arm styles claim an additional perspective or nuance on range, it probably couldn't hurt to consider what they have to offer.
I wasn't advocating any long-arm style. However strategy wise by definition, a good outside fighter should beat a short range fighter by controlling distance, listening, luring, seizing the opponent, then finishing. By definition, once the opponent is seized he is not capable of attacking. This could be done without entering the short range. As Liang De Hua says, you don't want to be trading punches.
As Tai Chi strategy says, these steps should be in the process:
Zhang Yun wrote:One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone. The complete process consists of five steps: 1. Ting – listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do, 2. Hua – melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, 3. Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go, 4. Nia - hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced), and 5. Fa - release a throwing force: attack.
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sure-- I wasn't really disagreeing with anyone, just adding to the conversation. I've been exposed to (as in briefly practiced) northern Tan Tui and Longfist, both of which would be considered "long arm" styles, and found that the same body mechanics and movements other folks used for longer range fighting, I used for infighting. Connected, coordinated movement seems to pretty much work at any distance, it's just a question of understanding how it operates for each and which an individual wants to emphasize. Understanding the footwork associated with each, and transition between one and another, is a whole different deal, in my experience, and is one of the big factors that separates the fighters from the walking, talking punching bags (in the circles I get to play with, I count as the latter).
First you must understand big circles Then small circles When you understand both big and small How they combine and intertwine Seek the curve in the straight The straight in the curve Then you enter the door
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
When I was practicing Karate and Aikido we often sparred 1against 2,3 or 4, the sparring structure was that the opponents was just allowed to do one and the same attack, for example a lead punch to the head, very simple but difficult enough, in this practice constant footwork was crucial to keep correct positioning, fun and interesting practice. One of the "styles" I practice nowadays is Tongbeiquan, much of its practice consists of "long arm" swinging stationary or with footwork, the long arm swing or whip like moves can in it self be used for attack and derfence, but the swinging also train the trunk/waist and hips very effectively and gives a very clear feeling of "drawing" from the ground and up, I found the training to be very effective for short range striking too. All that practice is probably very outdated nowadays, but I like it anyway, I'm not going to enter any tournament or fight my way to a titel fight and i try to have as much awareness to not mix in into obvious "dager zones". I'm not thinking about i may have to fight a boxer or some kind of wrestler or MMAists, i'm probably not a very serious practitioner of CMA I just enjoy the practice in it self, the practice is the goal for me........and if I was to be attacked in a phone booth I hope the phone is that old style Bakelite made of.
Many have talked about long arm. In this sense the lama style is kind of unique in that it uses circular hands with circular foot work. This alone makes it quite different in that the foot work is very integrated with the hands using a somewhat unique strategy functioning in a range between kicking and punching for most styles.
Lots of training is spent developing the foot work and sense of range, space and timing...
middleway wrote:I struggle to see how these are unique advantages? All well developed martial arts and combat sports have advanced 'Range, distancing, timing and foot work'. These are common traits, so where is the advantage?
I agree. I believe similar concepts and techniques can already be found in MMA.
windwalker wrote:I don't look at things as about MMA vs CMA, never cared much for MMA but respect its skill sets and those who practice and compete.
interesting the "drop shift" is very similar to whats called "running crane" They say its unorthodox but its a very practiced and known method among white crane, lama hop gar practitioners.
middleway's clip was good. However, TJ Dillashaw uses more concepts than just the drop shift. Here is a more recent video, explaining more concepts.
The Modern Martial Artist Published on Oct 14, 2017
TJ Dillashaw is one of the most aggressive and creative fighters in MMA today. It’s impossible to watch his footwork without seeing the influence of many great fighters throughout history. He has found a way to blend the techniques of these great fighters from the past into a unique style that is all his own. This has given him an incredible ability to manipulate distance and create new angles from which to attack:
Many have talked about long arm. In this sense the lama style is kind of unique in that it uses circular hands with circular foot work. This alone makes it quite different in that the foot work is very integrated with the hands using a somewhat unique strategy functioning in a range between kicking and punching for most styles.
Lots of training is spent developing the foot work and sense of range, space and timing...
The concepts and strategies you posted were good. I just do not see their uniqueness. Maybe you can expound on the differences in the concepts and strategies, which would be a good thing.
It's more useful for me to see concepts and techniques applied against a resistant opponent. That is why I post competitions rather than demonstrations, when available.
You mention CMA should be preserved in combat. However, you have only posted demonstrations (as that's all that may have been available). However, the long arm player may look different when he competes. This has been found true in the Hong Kong Martial Arts Invitational 2017 thread where some long fist styles competed. There was not much difference in appearance between the styles of Choi Lee Fut, Liu Yun Ba Ji Quan, Zhou Jiaquan (Jow Ga), Tai Chi, Tai Sing Pek Kwar, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Karate and Kickboxing.
When people talk about white crane being a long arm style that is only half the truth It is long arm a rudimentary level but the circles are meant to become smaller over time That is what the needle in cotton set is about
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
Fwiw I had a go fighting some Hop Gar guys in competition back a bit over a decade or so ago. I figured out quite quickly, at least against the ones I was up against that you could stay out and play a distance game, kicking and such like and changing angles to avoid them entering, or alternatively as soon as it looked like they were about to do the long arm combo charge thing, preempt them by moving in first, attacking hard enough up the center or to one side to rock them back on their heels. Many of the long arm techniques aren't done at particularly long range - If they get in close, don't let them get to the side of you, but that's true of everyone. They certainly hit hard, not any more worrying than a boxer. I didn't notice any particular use of footwork angles that was noteworthy in practice. I imagine since they tend to get locked into doing long arm combos while moving forward there'd be an opening for a wrestler with a decent shoot. There's plenty of videos of Chris Heintzman's school fighting lei tai. It's not magic. When people train hard and competitively they tend to do well at that sort of thing.
Last edited by Teazer on Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why does man Kill? He kills for food. And not only food: frequently there must be a beverage.
middleway's clip was good. However, TJ Dillashaw uses more concepts than just the drop shift. Here is a more recent video, explaining more concepts.
The Modern Martial Artist Published on Oct 14, 2017
TJ Dillashaw is one of the most aggressive and creative fighters in MMA today. It’s impossible to watch his footwork without seeing the influence of many great fighters throughout history. He has found a way to blend the techniques of these great fighters from the past into a unique style that is all his own. This has given him an incredible ability to manipulate distance and create new angles from which to attack:
fascinating breakdown, thank you for posting.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me" Me
Teazer wrote: I didn't notice any particular use of footwork angles that was noteworthy in practice. I imagine since they tend to get locked into doing long arm combos while moving forward there'd be an opening for a wrestler with a decent shoot. There's plenty of videos of Chris Heintzman's school fighting lei tai. It's not magic. When people train hard and competitively they tend to do well at that sort of thing.
If you didn't notice any unique foot work a key component of the style what qualified it as hop gar. Its not about being locked into anything, its a distinct way of training comprising a very unique strategy built around key foundational concepts. If one didnt train in it, or use it, much of it most would be unaware of.
Most of the foot work I've read about in the posting I could point to the same type of stepping or foot within the system as noted, the difference in that instead of being developed as a personal style or method, its a method that was already developed. As far as whats called long arm by some, its very different in that hop gar uses circular foot work coupled with it, most other styles tend to use linear foot which IMO negates much of the advantages in whats called long arm.
while moving forward there'd be an opening for a wrestler with a decent shoot
You do understand that the unique horse of hop gar, is designed not to have a leading leg that can be grabbed in such a way.
The point of the post was to contrast styles that emphasis foot work, as a key component and actually use it as such. Like any functional fighting style there are and have been modifications by some adapting it to the type of fighting styles used in the ring today...
