"Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby Bao on Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:52 pm

Very interesting article.

Eighteen months later, nearly half the students had not bothered to use their unfettered internet access. Of those who had used it, less than 5% browsed foreign news websites. One reason for this low uptake was the belief that such uncensored information was simply not valuable. Their curiosity had effectively been neutered. The researchers conclude that lifting censorship on the internet is unlikely to be effective because Chinese citizens have such low demand for uncensored information.


Lifting censorship should be effective for what? Did I miss something or what was the point of lifting censorship? Sure, the censorship is superfluous and unnecessary, that's true. It's easy to go over the wall and you won't be punished if you do it. But yes, there is not much interest to do so and the authorities don't care very much if someone do. But there are other reasons for not allowing pages like Google, youtube and Facebook as well. China already have their own versions of search engines and social media. Why would they want these western companies to earn money on the Chinese market? Are Google and Facebook really the only way to communicate with the other side of the world? Of course not.

Anyway, many things goes in the right direction in China to a more open and equal society and Xi seems to want to do good things. We'll see what will happen in the next few years.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:30 pm

What they do directly in order to preserve their Society in the US private companies do indirectly in order to preserve the company. They have no allegiance to the society that allows them to do so.
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby Michael on Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:23 pm

'Why do we have to look back to this time in history? Why do you think it will be helpful to current and nowadays China, especially our young generation? Do you think it could be harmful to what the Chinese government calls the "Harmonious Society"?', one young Chinese audience member asked me in June.


Abstinence of thought seems to be the totalitarian effect.

After being forced to memorize volumes of incomprehensible rubbish on Socialism with Chinese characteristics, and history with Orwellian features, most of my students emerge from the Chinese education system with a strong hatred of politics and history. If they have finished college, very few would ever step foot into a museum purely out of curiosity of the past and would only do so as part of a tour group or for a very brief sight-seeing stop while on vacation, not that Chinese museums are worth stopping into.

In addition to avoiding history because they were instilled with a hatred of it by the education system, they also avoid it for pragmatic reasons: knowing things [about the past, etc.] only causes trouble, so let's not think about it.

As first world countries outsource their wealth to China, this attitude is being returned to them, an attitude of dominance and intolerance for dissent. China's not the only country who does that, but they attempt to do it at all levels, including maintaining control over PRC students abroad by encouraging their classmates to report Chinese who go against the motherland, as seen recently by the attacks on the Chinese student who gave a speech in Maryland and referenced the air pollution in China. If she had not apologized quickly, pressure would have been put on her family by the govt.
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:51 pm

Bao wrote:Very interesting article.

Eighteen months later, nearly half the students had not bothered to use their unfettered internet access. Of those who had used it, less than 5% browsed foreign news websites. One reason for this low uptake was the belief that such uncensored information was simply not valuable. Their curiosity had effectively been neutered. The researchers conclude that lifting censorship on the internet is unlikely to be effective because Chinese citizens have such low demand for uncensored information.


Lifting censorship should be effective for what? Did I miss something or what was the point of lifting censorship? Sure, the censorship is superfluous and unnecessary, that's true. It's easy to go over the wall and you won't be punished if you do it. But yes, there is not much interest to do so and the authorities don't care very much if someone do. But there are other reasons for not allowing pages like Google, youtube and Facebook as well. China already have their own versions of search engines and social media. Why would they want these western companies to earn money on the Chinese market? Are Google and Facebook really the only way to communicate with the other side of the world? Of course not.

Anyway, many things goes in the right direction in China to a more open and equal society and Xi seems to want to do good things. We'll see what will happen in the next few years.

Yes, this is very much what I'm seeing here in China. Take an international flight out from or to China, it's full of Chinese, the only travel restrictions they have are other countries visa restrictions. Most Chinese are not interested to follow the political spectacles going on in the "west", most are interested doing and minding their own businesses, which in many cases seem to be more easy in China than in the "west"
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:20 pm

Michael wrote:
'Why do we have to look back to this time in history? Why do you think it will be helpful to current and nowadays China, especially our young generation? Do you think it could be harmful to what the Chinese government calls the "Harmonious Society"?', one young Chinese audience member asked me in June.


Abstinence of thought seems to be the totalitarian effect.

After being forced to memorize volumes of incomprehensible rubbish on Socialism with Chinese characteristics, and history with Orwellian features, most of my students emerge from the Chinese education system with a strong hatred of politics and history. If they have finished college, very few would ever step foot into a museum purely out of curiosity of the past and would only do so as part of a tour group or for a very brief sight-seeing stop while on vacation, not that Chinese museums are worth stopping into.

In addition to avoiding history because they were instilled with a hatred of it by the education system, they also avoid it for pragmatic reasons: knowing things [about the past, etc.] only causes trouble, so let's not think about it.

As first world countries outsource their wealth to China, this attitude is being returned to them, an attitude of dominance and intolerance for dissent. China's not the only country who does that, but they attempt to do it at all levels, including maintaining control over PRC students abroad by encouraging their classmates to report Chinese who go against the motherland, as seen recently by the attacks on the Chinese student who gave a speech in Maryland and referenced the air pollution in China. If she had not apologized quickly, pressure would have been put on her family by the govt.

Yes maybe your information there is true, I have never had insight in to the Chinese education system. I have an American friend in Dalian who worked for a university there, that guy often talked how great USofA is and the many things he thought is bad in China, one student(probably felt bored by the talk) reported him, my friend got an ultimatum either he change his "teaching" or he can leave the university....nothing strange with that I think. If a Chinese student hold speeches in foreign universities on "how bad things are in their homeland" it might reach the Chinese government, I don't know about that, maybe the students parents are party members or/ and work within government in some way( not unusual) so it becomes more of an family matter in that way...kind of indirectly blaming once own family.
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:37 pm

Michael wrote:
including maintaining control over PRC students abroad by encouraging their classmates to report Chinese who go against the motherland, as seen recently by the attacks on the Chinese student who gave a speech in Maryland and referenced the air pollution in China. If she had not apologized quickly, pressure would have been put on her family by the govt.




Growing up in China, “I was convinced that only authorities owned the
narrative,” Ms. Yang, a theater and psychology major from the southern city of

Do they?

Kunming, told the crowd in a basketball arena in College Park, Md. “Only authorities could define the truth.
The speech on Sunday drew harsh criticism, however, from some of Ms. Yang’s Chinese classmates in Maryland and from legions of social media users in China, many of whom accused her of selling out her homeland. Even the city of Kunming weighed in, saying in a message on Weibo, China’s Twitter-like platform, that her comments about the city’s air pollution were “not related to us.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/23/worl ... uping.html

Who defines the truth in the US if there is such a thing.
The vaunted free press that the US claims it has?

It seems like it was much more then just the authorities.
I agree she was selling out her homeland expecting what?
She still has to go back to it. Bad move.... :P
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:17 pm

Trick wrote: If a Chinese student hold speeches in foreign universities on "how bad things are in their homeland" it might reach the Chinese government, I don't know about that, maybe the students parents are party members or/ and work within government in some way( not unusual) so it becomes more of an family matter in that way...kind of indirectly blaming once own family.


I think its often hard for people in the US to understand the concept of a society built around an ethnicity
that extends from the family, village, country. There are huge pressures not to bring shame to the family.

In some ways China is very big, in others its not...
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:46 pm

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote: If a Chinese student hold speeches in foreign universities on "how bad things are in their homeland" it might reach the Chinese government, I don't know about that, maybe the students parents are party members or/ and work within government in some way( not unusual) so it becomes more of an family matter in that way...kind of indirectly blaming once own family.


I think its often hard for people in the US to understand the concept of a society built around an ethnicity
that extends from the family, village, country. There are huge pressures not to bring shame to the family.

In some ways China is very big, in others its not...

Yes exactly
Trick

 

Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby Michael on Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:15 am

Trick, that American in Dalian must have been very vocal and frequently so in the classroom to have been given such an ultimatum. It's usually only the bible thumpers who get any notice.
Michael

 

Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby grzegorz on Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:26 pm

I am not there is a anything new here. Like Trump supporters the Chinese are so brainwashed with nationalism that to raise even a question makes one look like a traitor.

I don't miss a lot about China. Although I understand it and even see where Wind is coming from none of it is really new. I think the crackdown on Hong Kong shows that basically in China you can make as much money as you would like but don't question the government and things will continue down that road.
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby grzegorz on Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:37 pm

windwalker wrote:What they do directly in order to preserve their Society in the US private companies do indirectly in order to preserve the company. They have no allegiance to the society that allows them to do so.



That isn't quite the same. You sign paperwork giving up those rights while working for most companies.
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:54 pm

grzegorz wrote:I think the crackdown on Hong Kong shows that basically in China you can make as much money as you would like but don't question the government and things will continue down that road.


First: Occupy Hong Kong was supported from the US with millions of dollars.
Second: Occupy Hong Kong was not first and foremost a demonstration against the Chinese government, but against reforms on the electoral system.

Third: Demonstrations are not completely illegal. There are many non-violent demonstrations all over China. Last year There was an enormous demonstration in Shanghai, foremost regarding the pension and situation for elderly. The local government listened to the people and the result was good improvements in line with the cause of the demonstration.

Fourth: Occupy Hong Kong was a disaster for many store and restaurant owners who got their business completely destroyed. The demonstrants took absolutely no consideration to the Hong Kong residents who lived, worked and had business in the area.
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:19 pm

grzegorz wrote:Chinese are so brainwashed with nationalism
would you say the same about for example Japanese who also love their country but are not under the rule of Communism? Is it the Chinese people who love their homeland or Communism you dont like?
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:03 pm

Bao wrote:
grzegorz wrote:I think the crackdown on Hong Kong shows that basically in China you can make as much money as you would like but don't question the government and things will continue down that road.


First: Occupy Hong Kong was supported from the US with millions of dollars.
Second: Occupy Hong Kong was not first and foremost a demonstration against the Chinese government, but against reforms on the electoral system.

Third: Demonstrations are not completely illegal. There are many non-violent demonstrations all over China. Last year There was an enormous demonstration in Shanghai, foremost regarding the pension and situation for elderly. The local government listened to the people and the result was good improvements in line with the cause of the demonstration.

Fourth: Occupy Hong Kong was a disaster for many store and restaurant owners who got their business completely destroyed. The demonstrants took absolutely no consideration to the Hong Kong residents who lived, worked and had business in the area.

Interesting is that the CCP and the KMT both most probably spawned from the one and same source, both heavily influenced py foreign powers and most certainly also financed by foreign powers. My personal belief is that foreign powers also supported the uprising back in 1989 where they hoped for a quick end of communism in China as it had also happened around the same time in east Germany and eventually Sovjet Union. It did not work with China but instead had kind of a reversed effect. Foreign powers have tried many ways to get complete control of China ever since the opium wars or maybe it goes further back as to the Jesuits China/East Asia missions
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Re: "Censorship superfluous in Xi's 'New Era'"

Postby MistyMonkeyMethod on Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:12 am

I disagree with the premise of the article, seems a bit wishful. The question that should be asked is why would the Chinese look to the West, what's are the pull factors? Times have changed. Bar Chinese liberals who are few and far between, the mindset I quite often perceive from Chinese locals is looking at three things, Western politics, economics and military power.

In terms of politics and economics, it ain't a pretty picture. We have Trump, a bafoon come TV personality/clown, Brexit, Spain/Catalonia, right wing parties/majorities Austria, etc., shifting traditional allies Saudi/Turkey. Shrinking demographics, no growth, fiddled economic statistics, mounting debts, etc. Turning inwards, deglobalizing. Militarily, a quagmire in Afghanistan, loss in Iraq and Syria, mess in Libya, Yemen, Niger. What is attractive about any of this?

On the other hand, China is growing, people are getting richer, life is improving, health is taking a greater priority, global lead in green tech, manor scientific development and military development, even 4th tier cities are looking more modern than many Western capitals. However, no one seems to have leaned how to drive yet and the pollution is still quite terrible, but much improved year on year, been coming here past decades or so.

Of course, we can't ignore the historic context of interaction between the West and China, colonialism, resource theft, subjugation and humiliation. These factors sit firmly in Chinese psyche.

Also, considering China's place in the world in a historic context, particularly in relation to the silk road and its one belt one road initiative, it's quite telling about how they see themselves and their place in the world.

Realistically, the things they wanted from the West, they likely already got in terms of education (universities etc.,). Funny enough, I was at a conference in Shanghai a few weeks ago and a party official did a speach, one thing he said that really stood out, note this is to an international audience "Britain stole all everything wfrom all over the world, why can't China buy everything?", I think that pretty much sums up their point of view.
Last edited by MistyMonkeyMethod on Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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