The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:56 pm

Many of the people following this forum and my articles have long wondered who is the new mysterious teacher of master Keith Kernspecht? The mystery was presented in my previous article about master Kernspecht's quest to make his Wing Chun an internal martial art:

http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/2017/08/the-internal-path-of-wing-chun.html

I am happy to inform you today (at master Kernspecht's permission) that this teacher who has been helping him to transform his Wing Chun, is no other than master Sam Chin! Formerly of the I Liq Chuan system, nowadays better known as Zhong Xin Dao (a new term to describe the complete teachings of master Chin, within which ILC is included). You can read more about the relationship between masters Keith Kernspecht and Sam Chin in the official announcement article below:

http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/content/Introduction-3rd-Martial-Arts-Discipline-under-EWTO-umbrella-WAY-GM-SAM-CHIN?language=en

This is in my opinion a most wonderful combination and endeavor, with two distinguished teachers working together to create a better future for their respective systems and organizations. I have heard countless words of praise from master Kernspecht and his charming daughter Natalie of the kindness and skill of master Chin, whom I had already previously known to be a very honorable teacher with a good reputation. This joint endeavor certainly predicts great things for the spread of authentic traditional Chinese martial arts.

In the picture below are seen master Chin supervising the instruction of his son, Hsin Chin and master Kernspecht's daughter, Natalie.

Image
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:21 pm

While I applaud the efforts on his part, the caveat here is that mixing and matching the body mechanics of different systems doesn't always produce a superior combination, and may sometimes even prove to be incompatible.

If I were him, I'd look into southern internal systems (e.g., Fujian White Crane) that share the same root as WC.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Appledog on Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:52 am

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:23 am

I'm going to completely disagree with the naysayers here. First, Sam Chin's art seems to clearly have some southern expression in it, even if the I Liq Chuan people like to present it as part of the family of northern neijia schools. The stance, shoulders, and frame are all very similar to many Hakka arts and other southern schools including phoenix fist and others. So, I don't see a problem with them working together (even if I see some similar vulnerabilities present in the frame of both styles).

Second, anyone asking why Keith Kernspecht might not want to work with just anyone in the "Wing Chun" community (is that a thing? No) clearly doesn't know about the history behind his master, Leung Tsing and his students. They come from a particularly fighty line (ie: Emin Boztepe) and the other lines generally either don't like them or are just scared.

My brother trained in that line and Keith sounded like a beast, as did his students who taught my brother (Emin, Klaus, etc).

There may be reason's to complain about what they are doing, I just think the comments above are way off base.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:30 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I'm going to completely disagree with the naysayers here. First, Sam Chin's art seems to clearly have some southern expression in it, even if the I Liq Chuan people like to present it as part of the family of northern neijia schools. The stance, shoulders, and frame are all very similar to many Hakka arts and other southern schools including phoenix fist and others. So, I don't see a problem with them working together (even if I see some similar vulnerabilities present in the frame of both styles).


I believe his father has some s-mantis background.
His work and many demos always reminds me of s-mantis except for the foot work, its very different.
Thought I was the only one who noted it,,,good eye.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:41 am

In response to the first two comments -

How many years have you guys been in the martial arts or practicing Wing Chun? Keith has been over 60 years in the martial arts and over 50 in Wing Chun. You think he perhaps lacks judgement, hmmm? That he could have made a better decision for himself and his organization?

The man has met, trained with and studied under a ridiculous amount of people. Just last week he went and visited another notable Pak Mei sifu and did hands with him and his students.
(not sure I can share the name here). He has met most of Yip Man's long-term students and have trained or did hands with many of them, Chu Shong Tin included. In fact, he has many pictures with Chu Shong Tin from different periods. While he told me that he supported and thought fondly of Chu Shong Tin's efforts to make his Wing Chun more internal, this was not what he personally was looking for. Chu Shong Tin had the recreate the internal gongfu on his own, too.

In terms of pure body mechanics, I am biased to think that the type of Jook Lum Southern Mantis I do would have fit very well with Wing Chun (though I could not have been master Kernspecht's teacher, of course!). So does Xing Yi. However, one does not chose a martial art in this context and under these circumstances solely based on similarities as such. Oftentimes, choosing something very different to your own gongfu makes a bigger impact and leads to a greater improvement.

Master Sam Chin is to master Kernspecht:

- A very serious practitioner who has a complete and well-rounded system, based on logic and with a very good and comprehensible curriculum.

- Someone with a system that does not focus on forms and with a curriculum not huge in size - important factors for an older practitioner.

- A kind, well-meaning individual with whom Keith has a sincere connection and shares many beliefs with.

- Someone with internal skills more developed than most other people master Kernspecht has thus far met, over his lifetime.

- A person with an already established big organization and logistical skills who is willing and happy to travel around and teach.


All of these factors were very important for master Kernspecht in making his decision to merge Zhong Xin Dao and its teachings into his global EWTO organization, and learn the system himself.

Part of his motivation was to be able to remain a leader in terms of showcasing his art and skills. Master Kernspecht is a hands-on person and likes to do hands with everyone. He is 72 years old and past his physical prime. He needed a system to help him deal with often very big, strong individuals with little effort, not relying on strength, speed or reflexes. In Zhong Xin Dao he found the solution. It works very well for him, as I have felt myself.

Now as Ian has rightfully commented, Zhong Xin Dao also features some southern-Chinese roots along with the northern-Chinese ones. Master Chin is Hakka Chinese and one of their family arts used to be Southern Mantis, and they seem to have had other Hakka influences.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Appledog on Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:30 am

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.
Last edited by Appledog on Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:51 am

Looks like someone's a bit touchy today....

I, for one, have zero interest in questioning or debating Mr. K's experience in WC. The guy's obviously been around the block and knows his WC.
However, if he's that impressed with Big Sam's method, then I would venture to say he most likely has not had much exposure to quality IMA.

What I included in my previous post are an observation and a suggestion based on my experience and background as a cross-trainer and practitioner of Fujian White Crane, an internal art many CMA historians believe to be the precursor of WC.

You may choose to agree or disagree, but please try not to be miffed simply because not everybody on this forum is as eager to sing Mr. K's praises as you are.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Bao on Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:53 am

Seems like someone's trying to make a hen out of a feather...

Nothing new under the sky and certainly no big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation. But I can appreciate different alternative ways of looking at reality.

Though it feels a bit nonindependent and constructed to have someone else refining an art. If this gent has so much knowledge and experience, he should have enough confidence to create his own art or WC variation by himself and not use someone else's name to market or label his art. Seems confused and dishonest, IMHO.

And BTW, how much have Sam Chin studied Wing Chun? Enough to understand it's mechanics and power generation?

:-\
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby RobP3 on Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:13 am

I heard from a couple of his guys that he was adding a lot of Systema into his work, FWIW.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:34 am

Rob, are you talking about Keith or Sam? Because I have encountered no Systema whatsoever in master Kenrspecht's teachings. He mentioned to me a whole lot of styles which influenced him over the years, and Systema was not one of them.

Tom, I remember you guessed it would be Sam in advance.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby RobP3 on Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:32 am

jonathan.bluestein wrote:Rob, are you talking about Keith or Sam? Because I have encountered no Systema whatsoever in master Kenrspecht's teachings. He mentioned to me a whole lot of styles which influenced him over the years, and Systema was not one of them.

Tom, I remember you guessed it would be Sam in advance.


Hi, it was Keith, from a couple of his East European instructors. Don't have any more info than that
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby KEND on Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:12 pm

I searched for many years for a branch of Hsing Yi that had similar body mechanics to the system I learnt[Kenny Gong] but found none that placed as much emphasis on complex rib and hip movements. I met and practiced a little with Sam Chin's students and found the I Liq Chuan system resonated , albeit the approach was based on TCC principles rather than 5 elements. I suspected there was a Hakka influence but was never able to prove it. Over the years I have successfully integrated the internal power of 5 elements into Wing Chun, Shaolin, Kali and other systems by analyzing them in a 5 element frame of reference. This goes way beyond adding techniques to produce a chop suey of unrelated methods. Sam Chin is a smart guy with a deep understanding of IMA, IMHO this will produce an improved WC system and encourage others to infuse internal power into their practice. Good luck to SC and Keith.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:37 pm

Thank you Kenneth! Not sure whether the Hakka arts influence was ever a 'secret'. Master Chin is himself Hakka Chinese, and I seem to recall his father was open about their family also having practiced Hakka martial arts before creating their own system.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Finny on Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:25 pm

Yeah I always thought it was common knowledge that there was a hakka base to their art. I know Master Sam was quite open about it.. he showed me his phoenix eye fist (covered in scars) and mentioned that he used it when he was younger - I had the impression that was one of the influences

I think the combination of ILQ with WCK can work very well, if the person in question can drill and combine the skill sets. I fear there are some elements which explicitly contradict each other, and the practitioner (or KK, as the leader) may need to find a way to reconcile these differences - one can't do both at times, by definition.
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