dedicated to the discussion of the chinese internal martial arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang, taijiquan, related arts, and anything else best discussed over a bottle of rum
Ok, I've not recheck the posts in this tread but I believe the old film clip of "Taiji master vs Wrestler(clich master?) has not been brought up. The "bout" looks quite lame, tame and fake but I think it is supposed to show the "real deal". I guess most of you guys know which film clip I'm talking about, so does the Taiji master display good internal taijiquan techniques against the "wrestler" ?
johnwang wrote:It seems to me that we all agree that "clinch" can happen. Now the questions are:
1. How to avoid a clinch? 2. How to deal with a clinch?
Of course if you can run faster than your opponent can, the clinch can never happen. But the moment you step in and punch at your opponent, the clinch can happen.
If we're talking about a bear hug type of clinch as shown in the OP, then eyebrow mopping like in SC would be one possible way to deal with the bear hug clinch. Would you consider eyebrow mopping as being a skill within arts like Tai Chi, Bagua, etc?
If were talking a more muay thai type of clinch (hands controlling the back of the head, elbows locked against the body, etc), there's always things like using a gable grip to reach around with both hands and squeeze the back of the head/neck area while using the forehead to mop against the other guy's head and break the person's structure. I cross trained with a Xing Yi guy (mainly Shanxi Che but with some xingyi dao and dai xin yi stuff mixed in) who put so much emphasis on using the head to strike or add pressure while moving. I wonder if they'd use a similar application.
I'm sure that at least wrestlers are aware of head buts(strikes), look at a wrestlers ears.
Ok, found the "Taiji master vs Wrestler(clinch attempter" clip http://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XNDEwNDA ... 25AD%25A3_ The wrestler seem to fail fall very easily and lose the bout with nill to 26 for the Taiji master, is it due to the Taiji masters internal power empowered Taiji derfence or is he just technically and physically more well trained that the Taiji master won the bout.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
Trick wrote:I believe the hip throw is hiding in every corner of the TJQ forms, maybe I'm just imagine or they are not easily seen.
I have not seen "hip throw" exist in any Taiji system.
The first one you encounter in the Yang form is in the "rollback" posture. Right hip to right hip, behind, right arm across torso in front. Twist torso to the left. Most applications shown are usually a form of pluck, though.
The first complete throw they show here is the variation I'm talking about.
Last edited by origami_itto on Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
John, I am guessing the Taiji styles you are basing your assumptions on is mainly Yang style and its derivatives. Wu style, however, has many throwing applications due to the founder's background in Shuaijiao. The white crane spreads its wing movement in Wu style, for instance, is basically a classic hip throw.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think that can be modified for a hip throw and i've certainly seen Chen guys use hip throw in their taiji grappling eg. CZQ
But, IMHO, that's more of a shoulder "throw".. or at least would be.. A shoulder throw "proper" would be executed from the inside. In that app. he goes outside which might work better with some modifying, but he's not really showing that very well at all, and they are far easier to get away from - as evidenced in that clip. I actually think in most taiji systems the first point of attack in this move(I have seen it elsewhere as part of shoulder throws) is actually the joint attack on the elbow from that position. What's shown in that application clip would be better shown as a joint attack - IMO.. As it is(shown in that clip), it's a kind of psuedo technique that is neither here nor there/ one or other. For either the joint attack or throw he needs to bring his other hand/ arm into play.
I personally learnt the hip throw, from TC, in Wu style, don't see it much from Yang people but the White Crane posture is where it's at for me, a bit of folding at the waist as per 'needle at sea bottom' is all that's really needed. It's sometimes easy to miss in some Wu performances but it's there and you do see it in some old yang too.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:40 am, edited 7 times in total.
C.J.W. wrote:John, I am guessing the Taiji styles you are basing your assumptions on is mainly Yang style and its derivatives. Wu style, however, has many throwing applications due to the founder's background in Shuaijiao. The white crane spreads its wing movement in Wu style, for instance, is basically a classic hip throw.
There's a Greek saying that goes something like "My tongue has sprouted hairs".
cloudz wrote: I think that can be modified for a hip throw and i've certainly seen Chen guys use hip throw in their taiji grappling eg. CZQ
But, IMHO, that's more of a shoulder "throw".. or at least would be.. A shoulder throw "proper" would be executed from the inside. In that app. he goes outside which might work better with some modifying, but he's not really showing that very well at all,
I agree.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert wrote:A shoulder throw "proper" would be executed from the inside. In that app. he goes outside which might work better with some modifying, but he's not really showing that very well at all,
That's "outer shoulder throw".
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
Subitai wrote:For your question # (1) The video is down? haha, ok well in the very beginning Willie had pretty much solo demonstrated the correct form for a around the torso clinch to cinch or as Cary calls it a bear hug. Technically a standing clinch doesn't need to have hands locked persay...for example the picture you put up above with Chen Xiaowang vs a big Wrestler is a clinch, abeit a loose one. Especially if the wrestler just grabs CXW with an over / under, (I.e. Left overhook & Right underhook) it's right there for him to grab easily.
True a bearhug is one example of clinch range fighting. I emphasise it because most wrestlers don't see any advantage of placing the palms on the head, waist, hips, elbow etc. Maybe when combined with a hooking or a grip things start but even then it's about control & setup.
But the bearhug is different. It's an attacking move with the real power being "breaking the back" (interestingly reversing the back bow). Then it's an easy matter to uproot.
It's a move that seems to have been glossed over in many TC demonstrations & push hands competitions but is picked up by shuaijiow & some branches of chinna.
What is interesting is what happens in the video you posted.
Subitai wrote:The guy in Black trys to bear hug: 1) He started it but I think he lacked the skill and options to finish it. Definitely he doesn't understand lowering his level in a western way or using his head. 2) the Grey Vest guy is obviously much better to begin with and also he's not really trying any countering moves other than to just sink his base and be content to thwart the bear hug. - the dude had cool options but he probably didn't want to hurt the other guy is all.
For most of the push hands stuff grey vest just outright dominates to the point it starts to look fake. But once the guy in black get's a bearhug & even though it is at poor high level the guy in the grey actually struggles to shake him loose.
Some wrestling sport totally ignore the "striking". Other wrestling sport still consider "striking" even if it's not allowed to be used. When wrestling became part of the MMA, this problem that people ignore striking during wrestling has been resolved. IMO, for a good clinch, you should be able to control both of your opponent's arms.
In the following clip, the old man had controlled both of his opponent's arms when he applied his throwing.
Just by using "common sense", it's easy to tell that 3 > 2 > 1.
1. The following head lock give his opponent 2 free arms.
2. The following head lock only give his opponent 1 free arm.
3. The following head lock give his opponent no free arms.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
robert wrote:A shoulder throw "proper" would be executed from the inside. In that app. he goes outside which might work better with some modifying, but he's not really showing that very well at all,