oragami_itto wrote:Upward and Downward aren't necesarrily the direction of the hand or a particular expression of force. Up like water holds up a boat, your body's the boat.
Words fail
The opponent is the boat, I'm the water.
oragami_itto wrote:Upward and Downward aren't necesarrily the direction of the hand or a particular expression of force. Up like water holds up a boat, your body's the boat.
Words fail
-Tim Cartmell, https://grounddragonma.com/tai-ji-quan/ or if you prefer http://www.shenwu.com/taichi.htmTraditionally, single patterns of movement were learned and repeated over and over until mastered, only then was the next pattern taught. Once the student had mastered an entire sequence of movements individually, the movements were taught in a linked sequence (a ‘set’). The goal of training is to cultivate a kind of ‘whole body’ power. This refers to the ability to generate power with the entire body, making full use of one’s whole body mass in every movement. Power is always generated from “the bottom up, meaning the powerful muscles of the legs and hip serve as the seat of power. Using the strength of the relatively weaker arms and upper body is not emphasized. The entire body is held in a state of dynamic relaxation which allows the power of the whole body to flow out of the hands and into the opponent without obstruction. This is described in the Tai Ji Quan Classics as “being rooted in the feet, developed by the legs, directed by the waist transferred through the back and expressed in the hands.”The Tai Ji Quan arts have a variety of two person drills and exercises designed to cultivate a high degree of sensitivity in the practitioner. Using brute force or opposing another’s power with power directly (double weighting) is strictly discouraged. The goal of two person training is to develop sensitivity to the point that one may avoid the opponent’s power and apply one’s own whole body power where the opponent is most vulnerable. One must cultivate the ability to ‘stick to the opponent, smothering the others’ power and destroying their balance.
-Tim Cartmell, https://grounddragonma.com/ba-gua-zhang/ or http://www.shenwu.com/bagua.htmThe basic solo training in Ba Gua Zhang is designed to teach the practitioner how to control his or her momentum and timing in order to generate power with the entire body mass as a coherent unit. In the Chinese martial arts, this type of power is referred to as whole body power (Zheng Ti Jing). Whole body power enables the practitioner to issue force from any part of the body with the support of all other parts. Each part of the body coordinates with every other, generating the maximum amount of power available relative to the individual’s size and weight. Whole body power is applied in all categories of Ba Gua Zhang techniques, striking, kicking, grappling and throwing.
Fa Xing wrote:
Does that help explain Zheng Ti Jin?
Fa Xing wrote:So right of the top of my head, the initial movement in Lazily Tying Up the Clothes (Lan Zhi Yi) at the very start of the form following Tai Ji is the best and easiest example of pengjin.
Appledog wrote:Since some people here have been around since the early/mid ninties, it is quite a wonder then how people are still so confused about peng.
The trouble people get into is that peng is in fact a directional force so-to-speak, and thus, it must be applied against a force in order to be effective.This is the trip up which causes people to go 1000 miles off course.
If you visualize the path of the energy it is along the arm, sent by the muscles, along the length of the arm. This method of training can not produce peng jing because this method of training will produce a dead force that can always be redirected -- because it travels in a straight line....This turning motion will illuminate the same pathway as straight-forward force but the mechanism and application of force will be different. The goal then is to congeal this energy so that it drives not along the physical application of force but the illuminated application of force. One can immediately see that many years of training would be necessary to achieve this even on a local basis.... Thus making the circle smaller is really just the process of aligning the big circle 90 degrees on-axis with the illuminated pathway of force.
You must strictly adhere to the orthodox terms, orthodox usage, and orthodox forms as taught to you by your teacher or you will never understand and fall into illusion.
It is the nature of us martial artists to ignore the near and reach for the far.
If you have not mastered something like ba duan jin you should seek out a qualified master and just work on the basics.
If you come here to me I will show you for free, of course, you get what you pay for (i.e. i'm not a master, but I know what this thing is).
wayne hansen wrote:The two types of pengo confuse most,one for solo practice and the other for application
I think you will find the directional thing is unique to Chen style
rojcewiczj wrote:Peng is strength.
1. The True "wai rou nei gang" (Externally Soft and Internally Hard)
Grandmaster Hong said, "taijiquan is peng-jin", meaning taijiquan is the fist of ward-off jin and if there is no peng-jin then there is no taijiquan. Peng-jin (outward radial jin) is the basis of all the taijiquan martial techniques. In fact, many taijiquan masters, such as Chen Fa-ke and Yang Cheng-fu, had made similar proposal. They emphasised that one should attain peng-jin in taijiquan training, until it developed into the stage of "externally soft and internally hard".
Some taijiquan practitioners emphasise relaxation and softness, and disagree on the emphasis of peng-jin. They say that the practice of peng-jin adversely affects the relaxation and softness, and as a result ding-jin (opposing jin) may occur in the push-hands. In fact, the reason for saying that is mainly due to their lack of correct understanding of peng-jin, and do not know what peng-jin actually is. They think that peng-jin is the stretching out of the torso and the limbs in a circular manner that looks elastic. There are also people who misunderstand Chen style taijiquan, thinking that there are fa-jin movements in the tao-lu (forms), and these movements must utilise brute force and must be very firm and hard. If one has had the opportunity to see how Grandmaster Hong demonstrated the Chen style taijiquan routines, and to practice push-hands with him, then he will have a new understanding of the peng-jin and Chen style taijiquan.
Grandmaster Hong emphasised the need to loosen up every single joint of the body (this instruction was originally said by Grandmaster Chen Fa-ke). Only then could one maintain the peng-jin within the softness. This kind of opening up of the joints should come naturally without intentionally stretching the muscles with strength. Grandmaster Hong specifically emphasised the need to open up the finger joints which should not be bent and slack. Furthermore, attention should be paid to their direction and angle of opening up. Previously when I read Grandmaster Hong's manuscripts, in regard to the need to match the fingers pointing directions with certain kind of motions, it made me feel hard to comprehend. It seemed that these kind of recommendations were troublesome. Later when I studied under Grandmaster Hong, I then gradually realised that the angle direction of opening up the fingers should be adjusted according to the change of jin used in the motion. Only when this was done properly and then diu-jin (disconnected energy) and ding-jin (opposing energy) would not occur. The more I experimented with these techniques, the more interesting they became. Some people can perform the fa-jin movements in a form powerfully while practicing but their fingers are bent and slack in other relaxed and soft movements. This explains that the finger joints have not been opened up and peng-jin has been lost. When this situation occurs in the push-hands drill, an experienced opponent would seize this opportunity to break into your defence.
Many people agree that peng-jin should be attained in taijiquan training, but there are different opinions on how to achieve this. For instance, how would you respond by extending peng-jin when your opponent presses on one of your front arms. One of the usual practices is to extend your front arms as much as possible. The elbows do not touch the rib cage, as if there are springs placed under your armpits to stretch your front arms, wrists and palms in a circular manner. This will result your opponent's incoming jin to be lifted up. This can be regarded as a type of peng-jin, but it is a lower level, simple technique. Such peng-jin may seem to survive the pressure from the incoming jin but your opponent may make use of your extended jin by performing lu-jin (pull back). Over-extending of jin can make transitional changes relatively difficult and slow. For the same hand peng-jin technique, Grandmaster Hong would open up his shoulder joints by sinking the elbows downward while at the same time extending the fingers upward in order to open up the joints at the elbows, wrists and fingers. Such peng-jin was mainly generated by the pulling force in the opposite directions, upwards and downwards. There is neither forward opposing force nor backward retreating force that can be utilised by your opponent. When the attacking force is coming straight in, I will open up the joints sideways. Hong also suggested that one's elbows can touch his own rib cage when necessary. One may think the opponent's incoming force may transfer from your arms to your rib cage. In fact, it will not happen. Although the elbow may look like it is in contact with the ribs, the jin of the elbow is not loosely touching the rib but sunk down to maintain the peng-jin. There is still a tiny gap between the elbows and ribs. Your opponent's jin will not reach the ribs. The advantage of this is that it will give you more space to perform hua-jin (deflection jin) without ding-jin (opposing jin). The joints are opened up and articulate enough to make changes.
charles wrote:rojcewiczj wrote:Peng is strength.
It's official: we're back in the mid 1990's.
Peng is strength...but how does that differ from "regular strength" that everyone has in daily life?...OH, it's INTERNAL strength, which is different from BRUTE strength...And what is INTERNAL strength and how is it different from other "strength?... "Internal strength" is the kind of loose, relaxed, steel-in-cotton strength that is the basis of "internal" martial arts... "internal strength" is Peng jin, or "neijin"... The circle is complete, to a Bee Gee's sound track.
From: https://www.taijigongfa.com/single-post ... -TaiJiQuan1. The True "wai rou nei gang" (Externally Soft and Internally Hard)
Grandmaster Hong said, "taijiquan is peng-jin", meaning taijiquan is the fist of ward-off jin and if there is no peng-jin then there is no taijiquan. Peng-jin (outward radial jin) is the basis of all the taijiquan martial techniques. In fact, many taijiquan masters, such as Chen Fa-ke and Yang Cheng-fu, had made similar proposal. They emphasised that one should attain peng-jin in taijiquan training, until it developed into the stage of "externally soft and internally hard".
Some taijiquan practitioners emphasise relaxation and softness, and disagree on the emphasis of peng-jin. They say that the practice of peng-jin adversely affects the relaxation and softness, and as a result ding-jin (opposing jin) may occur in the push-hands. In fact, the reason for saying that is mainly due to their lack of correct understanding of peng-jin, and do not know what peng-jin actually is. They think that peng-jin is the stretching out of the torso and the limbs in a circular manner that looks elastic. There are also people who misunderstand Chen style taijiquan, thinking that there are fa-jin movements in the tao-lu (forms), and these movements must utilise brute force and must be very firm and hard. If one has had the opportunity to see how Grandmaster Hong demonstrated the Chen style taijiquan routines, and to practice push-hands with him, then he will have a new understanding of the peng-jin and Chen style taijiquan.
Grandmaster Hong emphasised the need to loosen up every single joint of the body (this instruction was originally said by Grandmaster Chen Fa-ke). Only then could one maintain the peng-jin within the softness. This kind of opening up of the joints should come naturally without intentionally stretching the muscles with strength. Grandmaster Hong specifically emphasised the need to open up the finger joints which should not be bent and slack. Furthermore, attention should be paid to their direction and angle of opening up. Previously when I read Grandmaster Hong's manuscripts, in regard to the need to match the fingers pointing directions with certain kind of motions, it made me feel hard to comprehend. It seemed that these kind of recommendations were troublesome. Later when I studied under Grandmaster Hong, I then gradually realised that the angle direction of opening up the fingers should be adjusted according to the change of jin used in the motion. Only when this was done properly and then diu-jin (disconnected energy) and ding-jin (opposing energy) would not occur. The more I experimented with these techniques, the more interesting they became. Some people can perform the fa-jin movements in a form powerfully while practicing but their fingers are bent and slack in other relaxed and soft movements. This explains that the finger joints have not been opened up and peng-jin has been lost. When this situation occurs in the push-hands drill, an experienced opponent would seize this opportunity to break into your defence.
Many people agree that peng-jin should be attained in taijiquan training, but there are different opinions on how to achieve this. For instance, how would you respond by extending peng-jin when your opponent presses on one of your front arms. One of the usual practices is to extend your front arms as much as possible. The elbows do not touch the rib cage, as if there are springs placed under your armpits to stretch your front arms, wrists and palms in a circular manner. This will result your opponent's incoming jin to be lifted up. This can be regarded as a type of peng-jin, but it is a lower level, simple technique. Such peng-jin may seem to survive the pressure from the incoming jin but your opponent may make use of your extended jin by performing lu-jin (pull back). Over-extending of jin can make transitional changes relatively difficult and slow. For the same hand peng-jin technique, Grandmaster Hong would open up his shoulder joints by sinking the elbows downward while at the same time extending the fingers upward in order to open up the joints at the elbows, wrists and fingers. Such peng-jin was mainly generated by the pulling force in the opposite directions, upwards and downwards. There is neither forward opposing force nor backward retreating force that can be utilised by your opponent. When the attacking force is coming straight in, I will open up the joints sideways. Hong also suggested that one's elbows can touch his own rib cage when necessary. One may think the opponent's incoming force may transfer from your arms to your rib cage. In fact, it will not happen. Although the elbow may look like it is in contact with the ribs, the jin of the elbow is not loosely touching the rib but sunk down to maintain the peng-jin. There is still a tiny gap between the elbows and ribs. Your opponent's jin will not reach the ribs. The advantage of this is that it will give you more space to perform hua-jin (deflection jin) without ding-jin (opposing jin). The joints are opened up and articulate enough to make changes.
wayne hansen wrote:I have had many people who come to me who have been holding the ball for years and achieved nothing
It's not what you do but how you do it
Just like all things a little instruction never goes astray
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