wayne hansen wrote:After all the bullshit on song good to see someone who gets it
wayne hansen wrote:All the verbiage on the thread about song
It is it
Strange wrote:
"we are not training to be physically strong"
Chen Zhonghua wrote:the power in tai chi is called a perceived power. It means you can feel it. It is there. But, it is not there. . . . There a lot of tricks involved. But if the tricks can be practiced to the extent they work, that is real also. So, it is real in that sense. But it is perceived in the sense in that it is not physical, you cannot test it that way. . . .
The highest level of fighting is that there is nothing to grab onto. We call this the “empty force. . . .” A handle is when you fight back. When you fight back an opponent can get a hold of your power. If you retreat, it is an empty hole, he can come in and punch you. It has to be just right. . . . In the end, there is a physical reality. But, it feels like there isn’t.
by CHEN ZHONGHUA on 2014/03/04 wrote:
Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method system produces power through many ways such as structure, angles and adherence. The result is that this type of power is perceived as real in the eyes of the opponent but not such in the eyes of the practitioner himself/herself. This type of power is called perceived power.
Perceived power is a type of indirect power.
MING on 2014/04/13 wrote:Indirect Power – Positive and Negative
The use of indirect power is the root of Taijiquan applications. According to Master Chen, Indirect Power can also be known as Indirect Action or “Structural Power”. According to this principle, reaction from the opponent is not due to action at the point of contact but else where. Direct power exists at the first point of contact. In Taijiquan, this point of contact represents an anchor, hook or handle where other actions can occur. A clear analogy of this concept can be seen in fishing. The fish hook catches the fish but it is the line and reel that drags the fish in. Indirect power comes in two forms, Positive and Negative.
Positive Indirect Power
In terms of Positive Indirect Power in Taijiquan, there are nine levels of holds (due to the joints existing on the human body). You can classify the levels of indirect power based on the number holds that your action has involved. For example, direct power involves only one hold (the point of contact). A first class indirect power involves two holds. A second class indirect power involves three holds. Finally, an eighth class indirect power involves all the holds (joints).
Figure 1. Illustration of Positive Indirect Power
Figure 1 is an illustration of this concept. In Figure 1, the opponent is fixed in position A. He grabs an arm at point B. The points A and B creates the first hold. In normal action, the fight is on this line A-B and it is considered to be an application of direct power. Through Chen Taiji training, you will maintain the distance A-B and add the actions of the kua (Point C), this represents Level 1 indirect power. If you add the actions of the knee (Point D), you will achieve Level 2 indirect power (using three holds). By adding the actions at each joint, your opponent will feel that that is a force on A-B but this force is not due to the direct power at A-B but the indirect (structural power) created by the Chen Stylists. Conceptually, each level (addition) can be understood as an increase in distance due to the involvement of each joint. For example, for Level 1 indirect power, the increase in distance is from BC. Similarly, for Level 2 indirect power, the increase in distance is BD. The difficulty in the use of indirect power is over emphasis on direct power (moving the point of contact) and leakage (other body parts moving).
Negative Indirect Power
Negative Indirect Power requires two actions. The first action reduces the distance and the second action creates a reaction.
Illustration of negative indirect power
Figure 2. Illustration of negative indirect power
Figure 2 is an illustration of negative indirect power. In Step 1, X and Z denote two points created by the Chen Stylist (X) and his opponent (Z). The distance between point X and Z is X-Z. The Chen stylist then takes the space in Y (for example, by moving a leg). The Chen stylist has reduced the distance by X-Z by the distance X-Y. In Step 2, the Chen stylist can create a reaction from his opponent based on this reduced distance. For example, the Chen stylist can extend his hand. Again, the reaction is due to structural power (through the reduced distance) rather then direct (muscle) power. The problem with using negative indirect power is that the point of contact must not move. The opponent should always feel that he is still in control.
Indirect Power according to Master Hong
Master Chen once told us this story about indirect power and now I finally understand its meaning. Master Hong was training at his usual spot. Close by, some young muscular young men were playing basketball. During a break, one of those young man came over and asked Master Hong what he was doing and how useful was his “quan”. Master Hong points to a big rock and tells the young man to move it over to Master Hong’s position and then he will answer his question. The young man dutifully picked up the rock and moved it over to the feet of Master Hong. Master Hong then replied “This is my quan – moving the rock from there to here”. I did not get it when I first heard the story but now I see how it illustrates perfectly the concept of indirect power!
Strange wrote:
"we are not training to be physically strong"
C.J.W. wrote:
But I also wonder how he feels about IMA methods that focus on both external and internal development (i.e., to become both physically AND internally strong.)
By all accounts, we know that many IMA masters of the past were also capable of impressive feats of strength as opposed to being weak and frail. Take Chen Fake as an example, he was known to train using heavy weapons and, according to Hung Junshen, once grabbed and lifted a student who weighed over 100 kgs over his head with ease.
marvin8 wrote:Strange wrote:
"we are not training to be physically strong"
From the OP video starting at 3:32:Chen Zhonghua wrote:the power in tai chi is called a perceived power. It means you can feel it. It is there. But, it is not there. . . . There a lot of tricks involved. But if the tricks can be practiced to the extent they work, that is real also. So, it is real in that sense. But it is perceived in the sense in that it is not physical, you cannot test it that way. . . .
The highest level of fighting is that there is nothing to grab onto. We call this the “empty force. . . .” A handle is when you fight back. When you fight back an opponent can get a hold of your power. If you retreat, it is an empty hole, he can come in and punch you. It has to be just right. . . . In the end, there is a physical reality. But, it feels like there isn’t.
Corresponding info . . .
J Tam
Published on Nov 10, 2014
陳式太極拳實用拳法-- 理精法密 (shiyongquanfa.cn)
At a Chen-style Taijiquan Practical Method workshop in Ottawa (Oct 2014), Master Ronnie Yee explains and demonstrates how rotation and the fine adjustment of angles can lead to perceived power of roundness and peng by the opponent.
[Master Ronnie Yee (余永安) is the first indoor disciple of Chen Zhonghua Laoshi (陳中華老師) - practicalmethod.com.]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kzBf1jYStU
From Perceived power, http://practicalmethod.com/2014/03/perceived-power/:by CHEN ZHONGHUA on 2014/03/04 wrote:
Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method system produces power through many ways such as structure, angles and adherence. The result is that this type of power is perceived as real in the eyes of the opponent but not such in the eyes of the practitioner himself/herself. This type of power is called perceived power.
Perceived power is a type of indirect power.
Excerpt from Ottawa Open House and Workshop Review April, 2014, http://practicalmethod.com/2014/04/otta ... pril-2014/MING on 2014/04/13 wrote:Indirect Power – Positive and Negative
The use of indirect power is the root of Taijiquan applications. According to Master Chen, Indirect Power can also be known as Indirect Action or “Structural Power”. According to this principle, reaction from the opponent is not due to action at the point of contact but else where. Direct power exists at the first point of contact. In Taijiquan, this point of contact represents an anchor, hook or handle where other actions can occur. A clear analogy of this concept can be seen in fishing. The fish hook catches the fish but it is the line and reel that drags the fish in. Indirect power comes in two forms, Positive and Negative.
Positive Indirect Power
In terms of Positive Indirect Power in Taijiquan, there are nine levels of holds (due to the joints existing on the human body). You can classify the levels of indirect power based on the number holds that your action has involved. For example, direct power involves only one hold (the point of contact). A first class indirect power involves two holds. A second class indirect power involves three holds. Finally, an eighth class indirect power involves all the holds (joints).
Figure 1. Illustration of Positive Indirect Power
Figure 1 is an illustration of this concept. In Figure 1, the opponent is fixed in position A. He grabs an arm at point B. The points A and B creates the first hold. In normal action, the fight is on this line A-B and it is considered to be an application of direct power. Through Chen Taiji training, you will maintain the distance A-B and add the actions of the kua (Point C), this represents Level 1 indirect power. If you add the actions of the knee (Point D), you will achieve Level 2 indirect power (using three holds). By adding the actions at each joint, your opponent will feel that that is a force on A-B but this force is not due to the direct power at A-B but the indirect (structural power) created by the Chen Stylists. Conceptually, each level (addition) can be understood as an increase in distance due to the involvement of each joint. For example, for Level 1 indirect power, the increase in distance is from BC. Similarly, for Level 2 indirect power, the increase in distance is BD. The difficulty in the use of indirect power is over emphasis on direct power (moving the point of contact) and leakage (other body parts moving).
Negative Indirect Power
Negative Indirect Power requires two actions. The first action reduces the distance and the second action creates a reaction.
Illustration of negative indirect power
Figure 2. Illustration of negative indirect power
Figure 2 is an illustration of negative indirect power. In Step 1, X and Z denote two points created by the Chen Stylist (X) and his opponent (Z). The distance between point X and Z is X-Z. The Chen stylist then takes the space in Y (for example, by moving a leg). The Chen stylist has reduced the distance by X-Z by the distance X-Y. In Step 2, the Chen stylist can create a reaction from his opponent based on this reduced distance. For example, the Chen stylist can extend his hand. Again, the reaction is due to structural power (through the reduced distance) rather then direct (muscle) power. The problem with using negative indirect power is that the point of contact must not move. The opponent should always feel that he is still in control.
Indirect Power according to Master Hong
Master Chen once told us this story about indirect power and now I finally understand its meaning. Master Hong was training at his usual spot. Close by, some young muscular young men were playing basketball. During a break, one of those young man came over and asked Master Hong what he was doing and how useful was his “quan”. Master Hong points to a big rock and tells the young man to move it over to Master Hong’s position and then he will answer his question. The young man dutifully picked up the rock and moved it over to the feet of Master Hong. Master Hong then replied “This is my quan – moving the rock from there to here”. I did not get it when I first heard the story but now I see how it illustrates perfectly the concept of indirect power!
Indirect Power in Taijiquan (Trailer)
Practicalmethod
Published on Dec 6, 2014:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3WGMYSbic
Strange wrote:well, Old Master Wang was a person of smaller stature
my teacher told me he once lifted a student from behind, between the legs,
using his leg alone, to correct his zz stance
and don't get me going on what Divine Spear Li could do with his spear
...he spars with his student with his spear tucked in his belt and held at the end with one hand
AND get them every time
that would have been a sight to see heh
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