Make your push into a throw

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:59 am

marvin8 wrote:Push/pull is like yin/yang in "Chinese philosophy,"

Besides push and pull, there is also twist. I will say the usage are:

1. Pull 50%,
2. Push 30%,
3. Twist 20%.

In wrestling, pulling is used much more often then pushing.

All the

- face to face throws use push or twist.
- back to face throws use pull.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:40 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Push/pull is like yin/yang in "Chinese philosophy,"

Besides push and pull, there is also twist. I will say the usage are:

1. Pull 50%,
2. Push 30%,
3. Twist 20%.

In wrestling, pulling is used much more often then pushing.

All the

- face to face throws use push or twist.
- back to face throws use pull.

I was thinking more of pushing or pulling, then borrow opponent's reaction force to finish (action/reaction).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDr_NBHh4nY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFUjRoW_Qo8
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby wiesiek on Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:07 am

..."I was thinking more of pushing or pulling, then borrow opponent's reaction force to finish (action/reaction)..."
so,
this is push +, :)
and basically
we are speakin` about the same thing.
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:57 am

wiesiek wrote:..."I was thinking more of pushing or pulling, then borrow opponent's reaction force to finish (action/reaction)..."
so,
this is push +, :)
and basically
we are speakin` about the same thing.

??? It would be easier to understand you if you simply answer the question.
marvin8 wrote:
wiesiek wrote:demoing endless pushes is pointless on the forum,
it my present understanding is . . .

I love it!
we are diggin` in the deepest roots of the Chinese philosophy....

let`s agree, that push is like foreplay ,
important and basic,
BUT
it is only prelude in most of the real cases,
so
over-focusing here,- deadly mistake.

Push/pull is like yin/yang in "Chinese philosophy," as mentioned in the article. Is it your opinion that yin/yang (push/pull), JW, and GM Chang are "over-focusing here,- deadly mistake?"
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:40 am

Well, just for fun, let's say I wanted to throw someone over my shoulder. I'd have to be in front and at least have control of one of his arms. I'd imagine that, in this position, I could push "up" on one of his shoulders while simultaneously pulling "down" on the arm that I controlled. This would be using the "yin yang" principle, no? (Note that I'm not talking about how I got to that position).
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:45 am

Steve James wrote:Well, just for fun, let's say I wanted to throw someone over my shoulder. I'd have to be in front and at least have control of one of his arms. I'd imagine that, in this position, I could push "up" on one of his shoulders while simultaneously pulling "down" on the arm that I controlled. This would be using the "yin yang" principle, no? (Note that I'm not talking about how I got to that position).

No. Correct technique still applies. Here are examples of the yin/yang (push/pull) principle.

marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from "The History And Origins Of Modern Chinese Shuai Chiao Kung Fu," https://www.lvshaolin.com/shuai_chiao/:
Las Vegas Shaolin wrote:Throwing techniques taught at the Las Vegas Kung Fu martial art school, use the principles of Yin and Yang, These principles rely on the natural, physical laws of balance.

These kung fu martial art techniques uproots and throws the opponent very quickly. Yin and Yang is the concept of opposite force acting in coordination with each other in order to form a balance In Shuai Chiao Chinese wrestling the opponent's own body position is used against him. Fast moving foot work and leg sweeps are combined with techniques that control the opponent's upper body. This creates a push / pull action that resembles the yin and yang symbol. For example, one might push on the opponents shoulder while sweeping his legs backward so that the upper body would go in one direction while the lower body would go in the opposite direction thus off balancing the opponent and taking him to the ground. These kung fu martial art techniques uproots and throws the opponent very quickly. The emphasis of these kung fu techniques are on absorbing and blending with an opponents own force or momentum and using this force to slam them to the ground. The ground or the earth will literally be a weapon that you can take with you wherever you go and is always available.


Excerpt from "TAIJI WRESTLING," http://www.taijiquan.com/taijiwrestling1.html:
DR. YANG, JWING-MING wrote:The first application covered is Grasp the Sparrow's Tail during which Dr. Yang Jwing Ming shows how to use the hands, arms and legs to effect the opponent's root. Dr. Yang Jwing Ming shows how to use the left hand to push aside the right arm of the opponent, allowing Dr. Yang's right hand and arm to attack the upper body and head of his opponent.

An interesting variation of this technique is demonstrated by Bruce Lee in the movie "Enter the Dragon". During his fight with O'Hara, the henchman of the main bad guy, Bruce Lee faces off with O'Hara in the Crossed Pushing Hands starting position, with their right arms touching at the wrist. Bruce Lee then uses the beginning of the technique as shown in Grasp the Sparrow's Tail where he brings his left hand up to push/pull the right arm of O'Hara out of the way so he can strike the right temple of O'Hara with the top of his right wrist. The movie has to be watched frame by frame at this point to realize what Bruce is doing due to his amazing speed, but once viewed it is basically the same beginning as the technique taught on this tape. Bruce chooses to strike to the head instead of continuing on with a wrestling throw, but the moves leading to the strike and/or throw are the same. Remember, Bruce Lee learned Taijiquan from his father around the same time as he began learning Wing Chun from Yip Man.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrWXpmHruxQ
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:46 pm

I didn't mention any technique. But no matter.
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:58 pm

Steve James wrote:I didn't mention any technique. But no matter.

A hip throw is to

- push with hip and
- pull with arm.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:14 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:I didn't mention any technique. But no matter.

A hip throw is to

- push with hip and
- pull with arm.


That was my point.:) There's a shuaijiao logo with a guy doing a throw inside a taichitu. Isn't there?
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:41 pm

Steve James wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:I didn't mention any technique. But no matter.

A hip throw is to

- push with hip and
- pull with arm.


That was my point.:) There's a shuaijiao logo with a guy doing a throw inside a taichitu. Isn't there?

I misread your post, earlier. Are you speaking of a shoulder throw?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSHmiEShYeI
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:52 pm

I misread your post, earlier. Are you speaking of a shoulder throw?


That would be one obvious example, but I was just pointing out the push/pull principle. The seoinage is a specific technique. John might argue that tcc generally doesn't have that specific technique. There's no reason it couldn't be; the only question is the specific way to include it.

Anyway, I think I mentioned earlier to John that a throw contains a push up. I think combining a push up with a pull down results in a throw. Otoh, it works if reversed, and a pull up is combined with a push down. That's one way I think of as the principle of using yin and yang.
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:22 pm

Steve James wrote:
I misread your post, earlier. Are you speaking of a shoulder throw?


That would be one obvious example, but I was just pointing out the push/pull principle. The seoinage is a specific technique. John might argue that tcc generally doesn't have that specific technique. There's no reason it couldn't be; the only question is the specific way to include it.

Anyway, I think I mentioned earlier to John that a throw contains a push up. I think combining a push up with a pull down results in a throw. Otoh, it works if reversed, and a pull up is combined with a push down. That's one way I think of as the principle of using yin and yang.

Don't know if this helps, but . . .

sdouglas2007
Published on May 16, 2009:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W2RfBX8jKE

From comments:
sdouglas2007
1 year ago
+laurence frese

Thanks for comment. Maybe one day we will get round to that - good idea. In the meantime if you are familiar with the Wu-cheng /Wudang form the throws in order (roughly?) are
Hip throw,( the turn immediately after white crane)
Lock variation
Return Tiger to mountain
The single and double leg/sack throws (between flying oblique and white crane/ turn)
Pat the high horse
repulse Monkey
White Crane
Single sweep lotus
Double sweep lotus
They do both each side, so roughly changing every fourth throw, with couple of subtle variations on the sweeps
Hope that is of interest

sdouglas2007
5 years ago

Each of the throws demonstrated are directly from the Wudang Tai Chi Hand Form 
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby everything on Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:47 pm

Basically Split.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:50 pm

It's as simple as a "circle".

Image
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby klonk on Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:58 pm

What I was talking about in my first post is a downward push that actually nails the foot in place: then you can push him over it.

The rugby football footage looks to me more like press than push. Both feet off the ground is press up not push down. Actually, a flying rugby tackle is not a good attack at all because if you leave the ground, with no traction you can be pushed off in any direction.
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