Internal Squat

[wayne hansen]

Northern I'm sure you know what you mean by your post
For us beginners it is just a lot of words in a list

[northerndevotee]

Well if you beginners want more than letters on a screen...good. Best way to learn. Don't yap about it do it.

[windwalker]

Y'all don't know squat about "internal"!

But seriously, before agreeing on what "internal squat" means, perhaps people should first agree on what "internal" means.

Good luck with that. Not really true, what is "internal" is and has been quite clearly defined by the culture who's practices
this site is dedicated to. Problems arise when people either don't know, or question it trying to redefine it. I find its better to use another way of
looking at it as much as possible, one based on physics.

Interesting subject btw...
One of my students here a "Professor of Power Mechanical Engineering. .
His back ground both in taiji and western physics, along with having a native chinese perspective has been invaluable in comparing old taiji text with modern physics theories aligning them with both. Translating both into basic examples that none physicist can understand and chinese readers can read.

For 90% of the work we use physics to describe whats thought to be going on testing the theories refining the practice or discarding one theory over another as needed when either its proven not be quite correct or a better often simpler one is more useful


windwalker, your clip of the squat next to/facing the wall, is that supposed to be "internal"? What makes it so?

Try it?

Saw this in person while in Tianjin, along with some other movements that for most would not be possible to do with out some in depth training.
The teacher practiced something he called Dao ja, if memory serves me. Not taiji as he described it, a pecuser
to taiji.

My own teacher also used squats, with no leaning just a vertical drop into a squat, shoulders, hips aligned vertically with no leaning.

Think of leaning with your back to a wall supporting the body weight keeping the back, hips in line, and dropping down into a squat with feet flat on the floor, then try it away from the wall keeping the same alignment.

I often use this for new people or others curious about the work to show what looks easy is really not and takes some training along with understanding....When I first saw it having come from many yrs in CMA practices didn't think to much of it and tried to do it with out the understanding behind it, injuring my legs in the process. Took awhile to recover , learned a good lesson in doing so.

Posted the clip as a contrast to what was posted to show what can be normally done "as shown in the clip" dispite the verbiage to something that for most will unable to do, no matter how its explained with out making or understanding how to shift their "cg" along with some other things to allow them to do it.

Or as the clip explains using verberag based on a cultural understanding of what they feel they'er doing. Either way the "doing" should confer some unique ability often referred to as "internal" that may not be able to be gained using other means.

[wayne hansen]

Well if you beginners want more than letters on a screen...good. Best way to learn. Don't yap about it do it.

I do practice a little
It's not more than letters on a screen I want
It's letters that say something
What you wrote looks like a shopping list and says little

[Dmitri]

Try it?

I did, way back when you first posted it here (a few years back I think?) and was able to do it after a couple of tries, without having ever practiced anything similar to it.

...for most would not be possible to do with out some in depth training.

I'm fairly confident that any good yoga practitioner or gymnast or a dancer would be able to do it quite easily. That's why I was curious about what specifically made it "internal"...

what is "internal" is and has been quite clearly defined by the culture who's practices
this site is dedicated to. Problems arise when people either don't know, or question it trying to redefine it.

I'd love for it to be this simple, but if history of discussions about it, and the size of BTDT section, are any indicator, -- it is not (this simple).

[windwalker]

Try it?

I did, way back when you first posted it here (a few years back I think?) and was able to do it after a couple of tries, without having ever practiced anything similar to it. Kudos for trying it....your saying that you can do this with your nose, knees and toes touching the wall maintaining contact all the way down? just to be clear. Did you feel it was useful or the ability allowed for a difference in your work

...for most would not be possible to do with out some in depth training.

I'm fairly confident that any good yoga practitioner or gymnast or a dancer would be able to do it quite easily. That's why I was curious about what specifically made it "internal"...I am not. IME most people to include the ones you've mentioned that I've met could not.

As to internal one could listen to the video,
or come to some type of understanding that ones center of gravity has to change to allowing one to do it.

what is "internal" is and has been quite clearly defined by the culture who's practices
this site is dedicated to. Problems arise when people either don't know, or question it trying to redefine it.

I'd love for it to be this simple, but if history of discussions about it, and the size of BTDT section, are any indicator, -- it is not (this simple).

It really is simple, the denial of it is not.

Its been constantly outlined by past masters and present day masters who use this concept.
Questions arise by those who can not or have not come in contact with those who can attempting to understand whats really going on.


If one can do it, the theories used to describe what is being done I've found correspond to applied physics
if one cares to view it within that context.

I do...I've found it makes things a lot easier but still might take
awhile for ability and understanding to coincide.

[Dmitri]

your saying that you can do this with your nose, knees and toes touching the wall maintaining contact all the way down? just to be clear. Did you feel it was useful or the ability allowed for a difference in your work

Yes all the way down and back up, it's a pain but doable. Found it easier with face turned sideways, gets the head a bit closer to the wall... That might be considered slight cheating though, I dunno.

Haven't felt particular usefulness of it, but I definitely feel it in my back afterwards, so it's probably a good exercise...(?)

ones center of gravity has to change to allowing one to do it.

Wow... Don't believe that's possible to any discernable/practical degree. Do your references to "physics" when defining "internal" involve ability to noticeably manipulate, physically, your actual center of gravity?!

To me, that exercise is all about flexibility, core strength, and coordination (and patience, I guess). Got to be able to find some talented breakdancer kid who can do it after a few minutes of trying...

[windwalker]

"Wow... Don't believe that's possible to any discernable/practical degree. Do your references to "physics" when defining "internal" involve ability to noticeably manipulate, physically, your actual center of gravity?! "

Sure, one of the defining characteristics of what makes something internal or not. Regarding the squatting exercise changing your head position so that you're touching your cheek to the wall also allows one more distance. It imo is kinda of cheating.

Interesting your mentioning the back. For me it had more to with timeing and rotation of what some might refer to as the dantain

[marvin8]

ro79fit
Published on Mar 13, 2010

Face The Wall Squat overhead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WuiImA7f5I

Nathan Pascua
Published on Jul 18, 2008

Squatting against the wall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1XbCDunzUI

Karen Smith
Published on Apr 28, 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN2H8xpb6CI

MoWanli
Published on Nov 6, 2010

Dun Qiang Gong (squat):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGmKVACEFTE

[windwalker]

Wow... Don't believe that's possible to any discernable/practical degree. Do your references to "physics" when defining "internal" involve ability to noticeably manipulate, physically, your actual center of gravity?!

I thought this might help clear up how this is accomplished.

The centre of gravity (COG) of the human body is a hypothetical point around which the force of gravity appears to act. It is point at which the combined mass of the body appears to be concentrated. Because it is a hypothetical point, the COG need not lie within the physical bounds of an object or person. One subjective way (there are objective measures) to approximate the COG of an object is to visualise it balancing on one finger.

Once one understands this, it tends to make things quite interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGUW1d0w8g


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX0gzfXNWqo

[windwalker]

Nice clip with a good example showing movement


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSW8gXm ... e=youtu.be

Centre of gravity in the human body
In the anatomical position, the COG lies approximately anterior to the second sacral vertebra. However, since human beings do not remain fixed in the anatomical position, the precise location of the COG changes constantly with every new position of the body and limbs. The bodily proportions of the individual will also affect the location of the COG.

What some might call internal is the ability to change this with little to no movement....the squating shown in some of clips aids in helping one to understand how this is done....lots of changes need to take place...

It is said " from outside to inside, from inside to outside" outer movements create an inner awareness, which then is used to shape outer movement.

Think about if one could move it, with little to no outer movement....The point that most viewing clips showing this have problems with.

[wayne hansen]

The squats against the wall are good exercise but of little use to the internal martial artist
Due to the fact they are done against an immovable,unnatural plane
The squat should be done in the manner of shoulder stroke as a way to come out of a disadvantageous position
I teach a complete set of squatting exercises to enable this
They consist of one legged and two legged squats
My main Wu style teacher Hee Tow Tan could do 20 pistol squats on each leg smiling all the time,he was 76 at the time
He was the only guy I knew who could touch his fingers to the ground in needle at sea bottom with his back vertical

[C.J.W.]

FWIW, wall squatting is taught in some CIMA systems as an exercise to open up the kua and -- more importantly -- to condition the spine and gain conscious control of the tailbone. When done correctly, it can be very beneficial in terms of improving one's ability to fajin and receive/neutralize force by strengthening the connection between the lower body and the upper body. (There are also Qigong schools that does it purely for health.)

The way I learned it comes with an array of physical requirements as well as visualization techniques involving the use of intent. The most common mistake is sticking the butt (and tailbone) out like in a typical Western-style "ghetto booty" squat you see people do in the gym when going down. When coming up, the focus should be on the lifting motion of the crown and spine as opposed to simply using the legs.

Suffice to say, this exercise is a lot more than just being able to face the wall with the toes touching it and going up and down. It actually has a lot in common with the "squatting monkey" dantien exercise that Dai-family Xinyi is known for.

[Dmitri]

The centre of gravity (COG) of the human body is a hypothetical point around which the force of gravity appears to act.

Sorry, that's just silly. It's not hypothetical in the slightest, it's just hard to pinpoint with perfect precision at any point in time because we have so much liquid(y things) in our bodies.
It does fluctuate, but the amount of that change/the range of its movement is negligible, if one intended to use it for any actual/physical application, especially for such fairly "mechanically-crude" scenarios as stand-up grappling.

[windwalker]

The centre of gravity (COG) of the human body is a hypothetical point around which the force of gravity appears to act.

Sorry, that's just silly. It's not hypothetical in the slightest, it's just hard to pinpoint with perfect precision at any point in time because we have so much liquid(y things) in our bodies.I should have included the url https://www.physio-pedia.com/Centre_of_Gravity
It does fluctuate, but the amount of that change/the range of its movement is negligible,if one intended to use it for any actual/physical application, especially for such fairly "mechanically-crude" scenarios as stand-up grappling.

since human beings do not remain fixed in a position (Why? Cuz they need to move! after all in words of Socrates “Man is a social animal”)so their center of gravity keeps on changing.https://www.quora.com/What-part-is-the- ... n-our-body

Center of Gravity Outside the Body
Another consideration is that COG does not have to be a part of the body. Many exercises and movements cause the body’s COG to become displaced outside of the body. This would create an increase in the lever arm of the resistance force. Proper lifting mechanics are simply a means of decreasing this lever arm as much as possible. As seen the figure below, bending forward at the hip causes the COG to actually fall outside of the human body.http://www.aaronswansonpt.com/basic-bio ... s-gravity/

They all seem to be in agreement. Not to be pedantic just found your statement curious.
I would say the range of movement is not "negligible" IME it can be at any point that one chooses or not.
In my own work its something that is noted and used.