Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby Yugen on Fri May 11, 2018 9:13 am

willie wrote:Actually, no, I don't see it coming from the dantian.


Ah... ok fair enough, I guess I missed that in your critique.. My "sigh" was cause you were saying "that won't work on me..", to which my reply is "of course not because the drill isn't a fighting application, it's just a cooperative drill" ... hence, to me it was like your a grown man celebrating your smashing rugby victory over the kids! ;D
Last edited by Yugen on Fri May 11, 2018 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby willie on Fri May 11, 2018 9:13 am

C.J.W. wrote:
Once you've developed structure and connection skills, the next level of training, IMO, should follow the Chinese paradigm (like PH) that teaches you how to constantly neutralize the partner's effort to connect with and unbalance you while trying to do the same to him (i.e., doing counter-aiki back and forth to each other in Japanese terms). That's where "powering down" may come into play.

While constantly neutralizing in Push Hands is certainly important, we cannot be foolish enough to believe that it is the Pinnacle or paradigm of the Chinese Arts.
I will give you a hint from a true event.
My teacher trained in Korea and Muay Thai in Thailand. Later, he met master lu ping. My teacher was only interested in training with the best martial artist that were available. He did not play around. Lu ping was the featured article in kung fu magazine at that time. So my teacher went to go meet him. Upon meeting him. Lu ping ask my teacher about his previous training. And asked him to demonstrate is most powerful material. After evaluating my teacher's performance, lu ping insisted that he could "triple my teachers power."
At that time and still even today that statement does not make much sense to people in Tai Chi.

Powering down or dumping energy is a term that I got from my first Yang style teacher. It is very effective. Almost nothing works as it should against it.
As martial artist get better and better they start to be able to blend what "is" with their Technical Training. They are going strictly by feel and taking what was presented to them and changing what was presented to them into a technique. So, powering down addresses that issue by offering a highly-skilled technician nothing to work with.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby Yugen on Fri May 11, 2018 9:26 am

willie wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:So, powering down addresses that issue by offering a highly-skilled technician nothing to work with.


Right, but in context of the Aiki Age drill as UKE you don't power down, neutralize or anything such. Really Uke is acting more like a human heavy bag providing a locked structure for the other guy (Tori) to really feel into their own body and analyze how they are moving. Does Tori feel muscular tension in their shoulders? are they just pushing into the point of contact, etc...

Saying you can make it NOT work for Tori doesn't mean anything in the context of the drill. Everyone can do that by not committing into the grab.

... Now many Aikido people think this training IS fighting application... I think they're kidding themselves.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby willie on Fri May 11, 2018 12:09 pm

Yugen wrote:
willie wrote:So, powering down addresses that issue by offering a highly-skilled technician nothing to work with.


Right, but in context of the Aiki Age drill as UKE you don't power down, neutralize or anything such. Really Uke is acting more like a human heavy bag providing a locked structure for the other guy (Tori) to really feel into their own body and analyze how they are moving. Does Tori feel muscular tension in their shoulders? are they just pushing into the point of contact, etc...

Saying you can make it NOT work for Tori doesn't mean anything in the context of the drill. Everyone can do that by not committing into the grab.

... Now many Aikido people think this training IS fighting application... I think they're kidding themselves.


You had your quote wrong because CJ W did not say that, I did so I fixed it.
Honestly, I played the part of Uke 35 years ago,. I don't think that I would be interested in ever doing that again.
Last edited by willie on Fri May 11, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby C.J.W. on Sat May 12, 2018 1:57 am

willie wrote:While constantly neutralizing in Push Hands is certainly important, we cannot be foolish enough to believe that it is the Pinnacle or paradigm of the Chinese Arts.


Of course not. Traditionally, after push hand there's still Sanshou, or free fighting, training. The problem is that the vast majority of Taiji people these days have no interest in learning how to fight (or are under the illusion that they can) and only practice forms and PH.

To tell the truth, as a Bagua guy, I've never been a fan of Taiji because, similar to your experience, I feel that the likelihood of finding someone who can really apply the art in combat is simply way too little. Actually, all the competent Taiji fighters I've ever met are people who have cross-trained in other CMA systems. The best Yang guys in Taiwan -- like the young teacher in the CMC 37 posture app video from another thread -- are from Huang Sheng Shyan's lineage and their system contains elements of Fujian Whooping Crane boxing. It's a southern internal/external style that Huang practiced in his youth prior to his Taiji training, and the mother art upon which Goju Ryu Karate is based.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wayne Hansen's teacher is also a student of Huang.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 12, 2018 2:43 am

Even though I don't agree you need another art to make tai chi work you just need the right teacher
Saying that I think you will find the guy doing the apps is a hung gar practicioner as well
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby Trick on Sat May 12, 2018 3:06 am

C.J.W. wrote:
willie wrote:While constantly neutralizing in Push Hands is certainly important, we cannot be foolish enough to believe that it is the Pinnacle or paradigm of the Chinese Arts.


Of course not. Traditionally, after push hand there's still Sanshou, or free fighting, training. The problem is that the vast majority of Taiji people these days have no interest in learning how to fight (or are under the illusion that they can) and only practice forms and PH.

To tell the truth, as a Bagua guy, I've never been a fan of Taiji because, similar to your experience, I feel that the likelihood of finding someone who can really apply the art in combat is simply way too little. Actually, all the competent Taiji fighters I've ever met are people who have cross-trained in other CMA systems. The best Yang guys in Taiwan -- like the young teacher in the CMC 37 posture app video from another thread -- are from Huang Sheng Shyan's lineage and their system contains elements of Fujian Whooping Crane boxing. It's a southern internal/external style that Huang practiced in his youth prior to his Taiji training, and the mother art upon which Goju Ryu Karate is based.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wayne Hansen's teacher is also a student of Huang.

Why is it a "problem" that most Taiji practitioners don't want to fight ? In the very basics of Taiji practice as from form to push-hand and similar there is the idea on how apply it, even in the name it self there is the idea. It's up to each practitioner where they want to take it from there, if not fighting that's fine, if fight that's fine too........I my self is not a fighter so I don't know, but why the need for cross training in other CMA's to become a competent "Taiji fighter"? .. Isn't that the job for the dedicated Taiji fighting student to make the principles of taijiquan work...invest in loss ?
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby C.J.W. on Sat May 12, 2018 3:35 am

wayne hansen wrote:Even though I don't agree you need another art to make tai chi work you just need the right teacher
Saying that I think you will find the guy doing the apps is a hung gar practicioner as well


Sure. But wouldn't you agree that "the right teachers" are almost always the ones who have cross-trained in something other than just Taiji? ;)

As for the young teacher, he did Hung Gar in his youth, but his main arts are CMC Taiji and Whooping Crane, which he learned from Master Zheng Xianqi. (My White Crane teacher, who hails from Fujian, knows both Master Zheng and the late GM Huang Sheng Shyan very well.)
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby windwalker on Sat May 12, 2018 5:02 am

Some thoughts on a good post.

Trick wrote:Why is it a "problem" that most Taiji practitioners don't want to fight ? Its really not, it only seems to be for those that somehow never seem to find them :P feeling that those they do find are representative of most. They are not
One should not expect to find a wolf within a fold of sheep.



In the very basics of Taiji practice as from form to push-hand and similar there is the idea on how apply it, even in the name it self there is the idea. It's up to each practitioner where they want to take it from there, if not fighting that's fine, if fight that's fine too........I my self is not a fighter so I don't know, but why the need for cross training in other CMA's to become a competent "Taiji fighter"? If fighting is defined by the sporitive contest of the day, one would be hard pressed to find anyone representing any one particular style CMA or not... Isn't that the job for the dedicated Taiji fighting student to make the principles of taijiquan work...invest in loss ?


"Invest in loss" often quoted, often misunderstood...
Making it work depends on the inner clarity of what one is looking for.

An example of one who is

"After making deep breakthroughs in Consciousness, Ralston entered and won the full-contact World Championships in China, becoming the first non-Asian ever to win that tournament.

His goal was to create powerful evidence for the effectiveness of what he has been teaching and sharing ever since--the unique body of work known as Cheng Hsin, which unifies the studies of consciousness with studies of mixed "internal" martial arts, effective interaction, skill and mastery."
http://chenghsin.com/orientation-what-is-chenghsin.html

One might ask what is the goal of the many taiji styles and teachers what is their evidence based on.
What are the goals of the students..

Talking about taiji as some type of pure style or discipline reflects a misunderstanding of how taiji came to be.
Yang, Wu, Sun, Chen ect representative of historical methods and approaches to combat defined by each.
The practice of any one of them does not necessarily mean that one can call it taiji...

Whether the practices reach the same standard as past masters its hard to say,
the basis by which todays masters are judged is different from past masters different goals.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 12, 2018 6:12 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby windwalker on Sat May 12, 2018 5:39 am

C.J.W. wrote:
Sure. But wouldn't you agree that "the right teachers" are almost always the ones who have cross-trained in something other than just Taiji? ;)



IME if one wants to learn "fighting" one has to find a teacher who's fought or still does regardless of style or method.

Some people seeking to better their skill in "fighting" often find that "taiji" answers a lot of questions after meeting a taiji exponent who "fights"

They tend to stick around trying to learn and understand, in doing so often find that it improves their skill in "fighting" with the odd result for some that they no longer care about fighting anymore...whether they then go on to become
teaches of "taiji" is hard to say...

For those that do much of what they do is based on their experience although changed through the practice of "taiji"


My own teacher studied bagua before meeting his taiji teacher. It was said that he was undefeated using his bagua at the time.

"Master Zhang, and his Taichi master had a contest to compare skills. Master Zhang, lost in such a way that he knew that this was what he was looking for in his own martial path, Master Zhang, decided to follow his Taichi Master right after the match. At first the master did not want to teach him, but after awhile agreed when he saw the sincerity of Master Zhang, He agreed to teach him with the following conditions:"
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby Trick on Sat May 12, 2018 6:22 am

C.J.W. wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Even though I don't agree you need another art to make tai chi work you just need the right teacher
Saying that I think you will find the guy doing the apps is a hung gar practicioner as well


Sure. But wouldn't you agree that "the right teachers" are almost always the ones who have cross-trained in something other than just Taiji? ;)

But it actually seem to be that all those "have cross trained in" teachers where first practitioners of for example Hung-Gar, White-Crane and so on went on to cross train in Taijiquan....."to make it work" 8-)
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby willie on Sat May 12, 2018 9:05 am

Trick wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Even though I don't agree you need another art to make tai chi work you just need the right teacher
Saying that I think you will find the guy doing the apps is a hung gar practicioner as well


Sure. But wouldn't you agree that "the right teachers" are almost always the ones who have cross-trained in something other than just Taiji? ;)

But it actually seem to be that all those "have cross trained in" teachers where first practitioners of for example Hung-Gar, White-Crane and so on went on to cross train in Taijiquan....."to make it work" 8-)


That's because a lot of the martial understanding was removed.
People who can use it have come up with their own way, as appledog had incorrectly stated "left to ponder for decades" but those who did typically reject the original.
They say "that's not taichi" in reality it is, they just don't know it yet.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby willie on Sat May 12, 2018 9:15 am

Trick wrote:
to become a competent "Taiji fighter"? .. Isn't that the job for the dedicated Taiji fighting student to make the principles of taijiquan work...invest in loss ?


Who said that the pinnacle of taichi was invest in loss? where did that come from?? where is it in the forms???

No one got the hint

My teacher had just returned from training Muay Thai in Thailand.

Lu Ping said "I will triple your power"
Last edited by willie on Sat May 12, 2018 9:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby Bao on Sat May 12, 2018 9:46 am

Ah! The question if TJQ works as it is or not... A better question maybe is that why so many turned to TJQ from other arts and stayed with this art. Also, why do so many of the masters believe that song is the key to master the use of taiji. Not hunggar or white crane mechanics and tactics. No one of the most basic taiji concepts, just plain relaxation. Mmm, let's see... Maybe it's tai chi they promote and not a tai chi mixed with something else?
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby Trick on Sat May 12, 2018 10:02 am

willie wrote:
Trick wrote:
But it actually seem to be that all those "have cross trained in" teachers where first practitioners of for example Hung-Gar, White-Crane and so on went on to cross train in Taijiquan....."to make it work" 8-)


That's because a lot of the martial understanding was removed.
People who can use it have come up with their own way, as appledog had incorrectly stated "left to ponder for decades" but those who did typically reject the original.
They say "that's not taichi" in reality it is, they just don't know it yet.

Hmmm I did not express it clear, I said it seem that those masters of example white crane boxing searched out Taijiquan(in those cases yang taiji) to get the higher skills of boxing...not the other way around
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