Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby Trick on Sat May 12, 2018 10:07 am

willie wrote:
Trick wrote:
to become a competent "Taiji fighter"? .. Isn't that the job for the dedicated Taiji fighting student to make the principles of taijiquan work...invest in loss ?


Who said that the pinnacle of taichi was invest in loss? where did that come from?? where is it in the forms???

My take on that is something as -"fall down seven times stand up eight"
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby Tom on Sat May 12, 2018 1:28 pm

willie wrote:
Tom wrote:
littlepanda wrote:here's another video where Roy is uke




Here's aiki age with an uke at the other end of the size spectrum, Scott Burke, 6'5", 250 lbs., done by Dan Harden from seiza. Dan and Roy trained Daito Ryu Kodokai together under Kiyama Hayawo.

Image

Hi Tom. What is the point of this post? What is the point of referring to Dan's opponents size, when Dan himself isn't much smaller than him anyways. That would be the same as a 140 lb guy moving around another 140 lb guy.
I remember when this post came up. I said that it would not work against me. I'm not sure if you remember what I said to Dan. "I will just power down". Dan's reply was, "it won't work if someone Powers down".


Hi Willie--

Since it's clear you didn't understand the point of the aiki age exercise--as patiently explained by Yugen--you wouldn't understand the point of the photo with Dan and Scott, which was just to show the use of the same training exercise by a couple of guys substantially larger than Roy and the kid (by the way, Scott is 6 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier than Dan, who is not actually as big as you seem to remember him from years ago). Aiki age can serve one of the general purposes (in a more limited frame of movement) as good tuishou--getting a feeling for incoming force and moving it through your own frame and dantien. Tuishou like aiki age is a training exercise.

Separately, I'm curious about why you've emphasized Zhang Luping telling your teacher he could triple his (your teacher's) power. I know Robert Storey has power. In our brief encounter I could feel his connection and power--when he let me feel it. But I was more impressed with his skill in neutralizing and flowing from application to application . . . he really knows how to use the form and how to freely improvise using the movement principles. Given his shoulder/arm injury at the time (not sure if that was a permanent limitation or not), that kind of skill is what gives him the ability to adapt and work around the injury. There aren't a lot of taiji people out there of any style who can do what he can do.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 12, 2018 1:49 pm

Yes I admit a lot of good teachers have trained other arts
That does not mean it was a necessity
It's just that most young men seek out the flashy arts when young
Even though a number of my teachers had done other arts they always emphasised that it was not a prerequisite
As one teacher would say to those who came from other arts


Tai chi will help your other art ,it won't help tai chi

The big problem is a lot of people don't have faith in the tai chi method
They either won't give up past ideas or they look for other arts to bolster inadequate tai chi teaching
I don't care what people train but don't call it tai chi if it diverges from the path
Don't sell tai chi short if it is your shortcomings
I look at all the so called masters using weak trickery and coulpable students to fool the gullible
There may be no good teachers and the art might die with this generation but don't be the one to put the last nail in the coffin
A nail driven by the weak of spirit
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby willie on Sat May 12, 2018 2:01 pm

Tom wrote:
Hi Willie--

Since it's clear you didn't understand the point of the aiki age exercise--as patiently explained by Yugen--you wouldn't understand the point of the photo with Dan and Scott, which was just to show the use of the same training exercise by a couple of guys substantially larger than Roy and the kid (by the way, Scott is 6 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier than Dan, who is not actually as big as you seem to remember him from years ago). Aiki age can serve one of the general purposes (in a more limited frame of movement) as good tuishou--getting a feeling for incoming force and moving it through your own frame and dantien. Tuishou like aiki age is a training exercise.

Separately, I'm curious about why you've emphasized Zhang Luping telling your teacher he could triple his (your teacher's) power. I know Robert Storey has power. In our brief encounter I could feel his connection and power--when he let me feel it. But I was more impressed with his skill in neutralizing and flowing from application to application . . . he really knows how to use the form and how to freely improvise using the movement principles. Given his shoulder/arm injury at the time (not sure if that was a permanent limitation or not), that kind of skill is what gives him the ability to adapt and work around the injury. There aren't a lot of taiji people out there of any style who can do what he can do.

Hi Tom, yes I understand what Roy is doing. I have done the same type of things, even with my own teacher. I've just moved on from that stuff and on to more intricate material. When I said what I said it was meant with a very casual tone. Unfortunately that cannot be seen in text.

Right after you left. My teacher had got jumped downtown in the North End. It was two thugs of Spanish or Mexican descent using an excuse to try to Rob him they said that he was a racist. He punched the first dude who was only in his twenties so hard that he felt his rib cage collapse. The other guy after seeing that ran. Tai Chi is about bringing out the maximum efficiency of the human body. Yes he has skill, yes he can perform and flow from one application to another to another and to another. But when reality hits you have to damage your opponent instantly.
Lu ping had great skill and great power. Yes, he promised to Triple my teachers power. Over the next decade he most certainly did. Now, it's my turn. This is not stupid power. The strikes have gears
P.S. I'm not really sure if my teacher wanted his name on this site are not, but I was perfectly content with having everybody believe that I had some nameless, imaginary, instructor and that I was just making everything up.
Last edited by willie on Sat May 12, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby windwalker on Sat May 12, 2018 3:37 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Yes I admit a lot of good teachers have trained other arts
That does not mean it was a necessity
It's just that most young men seek out the flashy arts when young
Even though a number of my teachers had done other arts they always emphasised that it was not a prerequisite
As one teacher would say to those who came from other arts


Tai chi will help your other art ,it won't help tai chi

Many of the famous styles of taiji came from teachers who had backgrounds in other arts. They were already
proficient in what they did who after learning from the yangs would later found their own taiji systems unique to them.


The big problem is a lot of people don't have faith in the tai chi method
Which has yet to show it works in any venue

They either won't give up past ideas or they look for other arts to bolster inadequate tai chi teaching
I don't care what people train but don't call it tai chi if it diverges from the path
Due to the fact that it has yet to be shown to work as advertised, this contrast to past masters of the
art who actively went out and engaged people.

What "path" who gets to define it....


Don't sell tai chi short if it is your shortcomings

I look at all the so called masters using weak trickery and culpable students to fool the gullible

It may be more of those looking at what is shown as in this thread do not understand what is being trained or why.
I note you didn't comment on the OP clip instead you refer to "taiji" masters.. What about this teacher Roy Goldberg and the clip shown



There may be no good teachers and the art might die with this generation but don't be the one to put the last nail in the coffin
A nail driven by the weak of spirit


Disagree, people find what they look for but may not understand why they are looking for or what they have found.

" You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime you find
You get what you need"

I know many people who've practiced other styles to include my self that after coming into contact with a taiji teacher
who's art was functional stayed.

Some have talked about mixing other things into the taiji or what ever seemingly not understanding that "taiji" a concept
came to be exemplified by certain, styles, methods, masters who went out to prove it worked. How true it is to the concept
depends on what one is looking for...ie :

historical method,

understanding of internal

unique method of fighting that aligns with
historical accounts of past deeds by founding masters of the methods later codified into styles.

I dont call my own work "taiji"
all that I met do.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 12, 2018 6:21 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 12, 2018 6:52 pm

I wrote a long reply but then my I pad powered down and I lost it
Then I lost interest
Let's just say I stick by what I said
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby everything on Sat May 12, 2018 6:58 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I wrote a long reply but then my I pad powered down and I lost it
Then I lost interest


Haha yeah this happens all the time
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby windwalker on Sat May 12, 2018 7:53 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I wrote a long reply but then my I pad powered down and I lost it
Then I lost interest
Let's just say I stick by what I said


Its not clear to who or what your refering to...

if its about sharing a view point go for it, if its about winning an argument
your right often best left unsaid.
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Re: Roy Goldberg doing Aiki age

Postby Tom on Sat May 12, 2018 10:10 pm

willie wrote: . . . . I was perfectly content with having everybody believe that I had some nameless, imaginary, instructor and that I was just making everything up.


That would have been quite the Storey.











;) Pun intended.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
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