oragami_itto wrote:No clue who he is and don't speak Chinese, just saying that it looks like fakery or delusion. I would love nothing more than to meet someone who could change my mind regards this no touch nonsense but so far I've been out of luck
Appledog wrote:The problem with empty force is there doesn't seem to be a way to approach it within the bounds of Tai Chi. And, if people aren't willing to discuss the training methods that just reveals the impasse out in the open.
My theory is, no one talks about it because to talk about it would be to define it out of existence. The methods have been explored; we're no longer talking about things we haven't done yet. It isn't that people have trained and not gotten results either. They have gotten results; just not results which include empty force. And it isn't as if it has never been mentioned by famous masters. It has; Wang Xiang-zhai is famously quoted as saying that the emission of qi outside the body is preposterous. Plenty of other people have commented about it. It is at best a feint, a trick, and if you want to take the writings of masters on faith it doesn't work against anyone with real skills. I wouldn't know -- I've never met anyone who even tried to use empty force on me. Not that I have any real skills. But that no one has ever even tried.
So we're left with the whole of tai chi on one hand, and an undiscussed notion of empty force on the other. Apparently never the twain shall meet. It is fine if I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to empty force, but it's a little too late to say I don't know what I am talking about with regards to Tai Chi.
It would be more correct to say you speak from your experience just I speak from mine. I may have experienced things you have not which I tend to view it as levels of understanding...
The absolute best you could posit is that empty force is a side-transmission alongside normal tai chi and it is only taught to certain people; for whatever reason; perhaps people who don't rock the boat too much on forums ;-) or perhaps only to the heads of the style. Yet that would be an admission that everything I have said is correct. It isn't a thing possible to learn. 'You cannot get there from here'.
For example, since you mentioned the Wu style--in Wu style there are six stages. Shape, or form, Stance, or power, Will (your attention), Chi, Jing and Shen. In particular the qi-jing-shen development should be well-understood as a product almost exclusively of form and push hands training. Like learning to play an instrument; you no longer consciously have to think about each individual finger position and you can play with the music a little. So I would first ask, where is empty force in this well-known progression? With those I trained with. We used skin, hair, air. The touch becoming progressively lighter and lighter as ones understanding and ability developed. I really have the feeling that there is no wiggle room in this discussion; either the methods are there and they don't work because no one is getting them,There has to be a certain level of commonality and understanding before their can really be a discussion. In most cases it never gets past "is it real or not" or they aren't there but somehow part of some secret secondary transmission alongside the rest of the art, which is a capitulation to my original point.
Peacedog wrote:It's definitely not a tai chi thing. Honestly, I've seen mesmerists and any number of people from non-tai chi lineages do this as well.
The training requires quite a bit of sensitivity on the part of the practitioner to pull off and really clear technique transmission. Again, anyone interested in this stuff should definately check out Ramus' video work on Vimeo.
He is the only person I've met who has bothered to clearly explain how this is done. Not saying other methods do not exist, just saying he actually explains his.
Peacedog wrote:He is the only person I've met who has bothered to clearly explain how this is done.
windwalker wrote:Peacedog wrote:It's definitely not a tai chi thing. Honestly, I've seen mesmerists and any number of people from non-tai chi lineages do this as well.
The training requires quite a bit of sensitivity on the part of the practitioner to pull off and really clear technique transmission. Again, anyone interested in this stuff should definately check out Ramus' video work on Vimeo.
He is the only person I've met who has bothered to clearly explain how this is done. Not saying other methods do not exist, just saying he actually explains his.
And you know its not a taiji thing how?
With out understanding the bases by which its said to work
and using this to understand how it works you'll never get to why it works.
the fact that others can do this from different disciplines does not mean its the same...
On the other hand I've met taiji teachers who can do this from different areas
they all tend to use the same verbiage and demo the same skill sets..
just another one of those taiji teachers who doesn't teach it but does.
Met this teacher he is interesting he teachers in taipei
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMz64FbSIts
yeniseri wrote:Stuff like this give taicheese a bad name when you start adding this bullshit....jus' sayin
Appledog wrote:windwalker wrote:oragami_itto wrote:I'd say that appears to be some fakery or delusion going on, just like with all the other no touch nonsense
Do you even know who the teacher is, or what he just explained?
wow,,,ok carry on young jedi...
A quick recap of what I posted; I quoted the Wu six character formula, and I asked you to point out where empty force was in that formula. Because I am interested in discussing what Tai Chi actually teaches. So I pointed out that nowhere in the translation does he explain things in terms of empty force. All of this leading to a rather obvious conclusion that it is not a part of Tai Chi.
So if Tai Chi actually teaches this, I would be honestly interested in where it comes out, because it doesn't seem to fit in anywhere with the standard orthodox training progression.
Peacedog wrote:Windwalker,
What I'm saying is that it isn't exclusively a tai chi thing. It seems to be a methodology unto itself that shows up in tai chi and other systems.
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