windwalker wrote:Steve James wrote:Here's the thing. If you can't do something, you can't say you understand it; and, if you don't understand it, you can't explain it. The problem with this debate is that few of the people who argue for the existence of "empty force" (whatever they mean by it) say that they actually possess it. If they did, they'd collect John's $10K reward. It'd be the same as if I said I could do one finger push ups, and someone called me on it. But, we only discuss whether someone else (on video or in the past) can or has demonstrated empty force.
Sure, I'll bet almost everyone wh's been around long enough has seen or felt extraordinary things. My point has nothing to do with whether or not anyone's experience is legit. I'm just saying that only those who are willing to demonstrate should be arguing. Otherwise, the effort is wasted.
You didn't mention the redefining that often goes on by those seeking to discredit a practice that they really dont know much if anything about and are
unwilling to even address the theory by which it could, should, would work by...
The part I often find odd is that they selectively acknowledge the parts of it that they feel they use and understand .
Qi for example that most would say they know, understand and can use...As of yet unproven in the scientific community
Yet it's accepted within a certain context, which this aspect for them is not included in, making it not real....or not understandable
That depends on something as of yet un proven. "qi" for it to work.
That is until the experience becomes common enough that it can be "safely" discussed with out the rankor that always seems
to follow these types of discussions. Aiki, being a good example of something that seems to be acknowledged safe to talk about.
The burden is on "the people who argue for the existence of 'empty force' (whatever they mean by it)" whom are claiming the $10,000 to "know, understand and use" the theory and prove it.
Others do not need to "know much if anything about," "address the theory by which it could, should, would work," "use and understand," "discuss" or disprove it.
Excerpt from "Protocol to Test 'Subtle Fajin'," https://m.facebook.com/groups/419921708 ... 9781260416:
Stuart Shaw on July 16, 2012 wrote:Background
... The claimants of such ability insist that the "how" is beyond the ability of science to measure or prove one way or the other. They also insist that the only way to "prove it" is for you to visit one of these claimants and feel it for yourself.
However, such subjective evidence is unreliable because of the inherent fallibility of human psychology (meaning people who want to believe will react in a way to support their belief). Claimants will also point to the various demonstration video clips on Youtube as some sort of proof. These however are also discounted as verifiable evidence because:
a) They are all done with complicit and compliant subjects (usually their students), and these subjects are usually trained to stand in certain way and touch the demonstrator in a certain way, and hold their body in certain way that facilitates "the effect",
b) They are all done in a non-controlled environment.
Since this Subtle Fajin ability is said to endow superior combat advantage (some say it yields a "super human" ability), the main conventional way to prove such skill is in a bout of full contact combat (albeit with rules and protection equipment to prevent serious injury). However claimants have thus far been either unable or unwilling to acquiesce to this challenge (which in itself is revealing).
An indication of this is that, to date, there is not one video on Youtube to be found that shows Subtle Fajin used in any environment where the opponent is genuinely non-compliant and competing to their full extent.
As a secondary avenue of validation, it has been proposed that a scientific protocol can be developed that can effectively measure and validate Subtle Fajin without the risks involved in full contact combat.
It is upon this background and considerations that this protocol has been developed.
Purpose
In terms of its purpose, firstly it has to be clearly stated that this is not intended to debunk or discredit any person or tradition. Its purpose is to provide a format to create a foundation of scientific inquiry into this mysterious martial arts technique. Very specifically, this first protocol is about discovering a resolution to this specific question:
"Can Subtle Fajin be performed in a controlled scientific environment using non-compliant, non-complicit test subjects?"
The Benefits of This Research
• We would sort the wheat from the chaff. There are literally 100s of clips on Youtube of folks doing their bouncey-bounce subtle fajin with all their groupies going "Oooo the real deal!!" ... and they are getting away with it because nobody is holding them accountable. They are all using the same excuses why they can't or don't have to prove it in a credible way. Therefore those that may possibly be "real" are getting drowned out in the white noise of all the fakers.
• We would point Taijiquan back on the road of being a "supreme ultimate" martial arts. Currently it is not ... it is a world-wide joke. Predominantly old men slapping each other on the ass pep-talking each other into believing they are "special". If Taijiquan was even a fraction of the "ultimate" fighting art that it is heralded to be, why is there not even a single Taiji fighter making it in the MMA circuit?
• We would create a baseline of credible data of what does work, why it works and which training methods make it work. If we knew which practitioners were the "real deal" we could laser focus in on those particular individuals, their style, and their training methods to produce a veritable renaissance in the development and progress of Taijiquan. With the way things are going at the moment Taijiquan is quickly spiraling down into a stagnant and irrelevant cesspool of delusion.
Methods used in the test is structured as close to a double-blind as possible. The Demonstrator (i.e. person claiming they can perform Subtle Fajin), will be attempting to perform Subtle Fajin on randomly selected, unknowing and unprepared test subjects within a controlled environment....