Appledog wrote:Who invented standing meditation, i.e. the practice of holding postures for benefit?
We may speculate health versions of this appeared before martial versions or vice versa. I suspect it may have something to do with (zen) meditation which was extended to sitting and then standing. Or, daoyin postures which were held, and some people started holding them for longer periods of time, and then they made discoveries through this which were collected over generations.
In any case, when did this actually start? Does anyone have any information on the earliest arts standing appeared in?
Bhassler wrote:but once taiji went all floppy and lost the bitter jibengong, people had to find a reason for why they were standing there, and "meditation" was what they came up with.
Bao wrote:Bhassler wrote:but once taiji went all floppy and lost the bitter jibengong, people had to find a reason for why they were standing there, and "meditation" was what they came up with.
A very Western way of thinking… That something must be either this or that. But jibengong and meditation are not mutually exclusive. In Chinese culture things are often complex and can be, or express, different things at the same time. Just like a Chinese character can be a noun, verb, adjectives etc depending on how it’s used.
I am sure standing meditation has been a part of Chinese martial arts as long as standing practice has been a part of Chinese martial arts. Probably since the very start of tcma.
Bao wrote:Back then everyone was religious and did various religious practices.
Appledog wrote:Who invented standing meditation, i.e. the practice of holding postures for benefit?
Bhassler wrote:Could be-- it's just a theory based on what I've seen of contemporary practice. There's also some debate about what genuinely constitutes "meditation." Depending on some definitions, genuine jibengong and meditation might be physiologically incompatible,
Bhassler wrote:Bao wrote:Back then everyone was religious and did various religious practices.
That's a very monolithic way of thinking. It's unlikely that "everyone" was any more homogenous 2000 years ago than they are today.
johnwang wrote:Appledog wrote:Who invented standing meditation, i.e. the practice of holding postures for benefit?
The 13 postures (十三太保) was trained during the ancient time. Not sure the year.
Appledog wrote:johnwang wrote:Appledog wrote:Who invented standing meditation, i.e. the practice of holding postures for benefit?
The 13 postures (十三太保) was trained during the ancient time. Not sure the year.
But what does Tai Bao even mean, and why 13? I looked into these 13 tai bao, and although it is usually very similar some lists contain 1 or 2 different exercises. My school for example has a completely different set of exercises with (of course) very different names. But it is 13 tai bao. Now that is confusing.
Bao wrote:What I know is that Yang Cheng Fu's generation of Tai Chi teachers, both him and teachers from other Tai Chi schools practiced standing meditation (standing exercises practiced as meditation), which means that it's highly likely that standing as meditation is at least older than Yang Cheng Fu's generation, long before "taiji went all floppy", maybe something practiced at least as early as by Yang Lu Chan's students.
Bao wrote:Bhassler wrote:Could be-- it's just a theory based on what I've seen of contemporary practice. There's also some debate about what genuinely constitutes "meditation." Depending on some definitions, genuine jibengong and meditation might be physiologically incompatible,
What western people call meditation is pointless in the discussion. How meditation was perceived and practiced historically in China and in martial arts is what has meaning in the debate.
What I know is that Yang Cheng Fu's generation of Tai Chi teachers, both him and teachers from other Tai Chi schools practiced standing meditation (standing exercises practiced as meditation), which means that it's highly likely that standing as meditation is at least older than Yang Cheng Fu's generation, long before "taiji went all floppy", maybe something practiced at least as early as by Yang Lu Chan's students.
Anyway, from all available accounts, it's certainly not a modern hippie thing.
Bao wrote:Bhassler wrote:Bao wrote:Back then everyone was religious and did various religious practices.
That's a very monolithic way of thinking. It's unlikely that "everyone" was any more homogenous 2000 years ago than they are today.
It's "everyone in China" and it's my own conclusion from reading history. Even the most intellectual thinkers were religious and superstition. There's a written account that Zhu Xi (he who resurrected Confucianism as a state philosophy) prayed before altars in Daoist, Buddhist and Confucian temples in one and the same day. Through the centuries, religion had an influence on virtually everyone's daily life, their thoughts and actions.
Bhassler wrote:What I think of as serious meditation and serious jibengong are not compatible, but both of those things may mean something different to you. We don't have to agree, but it's probably good if everyone is clear for themselves what they mean by those terms.
"meditation can turn fools into sages, but unfortunately fools never meditate"
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