"Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

"Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:34 am

Apparently, it's this:



The Chinese teacher looks rather decent, actually. Quite good. The author Bob Boyd - for him there isn't enough footage to judge. Funny names though - "Snake style", and "Tiger style Tai Chi" in Boyd's past, if you read his biography on CreateSpace:
https://www.createspace.com/3567343 . Here's Boyd's explanation for the names to make sense: http://www.ipfamilytaichi.org/page1/page6/index.html

Best of luck to Bob, and hopefully it's a good book.
Last edited by jonathan.bluestein on Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Bob on Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:36 am

Hmmm? At the point .16 mark, that is a similiar exercise found in the bagua system that I practice [there are many more we use in a stationary position but that is almost identical].
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:41 am

in the explanation of the name in "http://www.ipfamilytaichi.org/page1/page6/index.html", he says that the name is a modern name, a new label.

In the link to the book it says:

"The snake style is the original, martial system of the Yang family that was taught only to male heirs of the Yang family."

I found the different texts quite contradictory. It's probably at least half bs.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby cloudz on Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:58 am

I don't see any contradiction. They're saying only the labeling they're using: snake, tiger, crane, is relatively new.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:12 am

cloudz wrote:I don't see any contradiction. They're saying only the labeling they're using: snake, tiger, crane, is relatively new.


But then what are the old names, who changed the names and why? You can not just tell one part of the story if you want people to see some kind of credibility in your statements. Obviously, the author use a certain label for the book in marketing purpose. If there actually is something old, genuine and earlier not revealed in the content, is quite another thing.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Xiong on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:16 am

Last time I saw a reference to the snake style of the Yang family, a couple of years ago, I showed it to my Yang Taiji sifu who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and he is of the belief that someone, not the yang family, made it up.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby cloudz on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:33 am

Ip tai Tak was senior disciple to Yang Sau Cheung so he doesn't really need to make material up from scratch.

Xiong what did you show your sifu, and what is 'made up', that's not particularly clear from your post.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby cloudz on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:41 am

bao wrote:But then what are the old names, who changed the names and why?


I've heard many reference to low, medium and high frames, seems there might be a collorary there (perhaps not). But that's just personal speculation at this point. I don't really see this as someone coming along and saying we've changed the names.



You can not just tell one part of the story if you want people to see some kind of credibility in your statements. Obviously, the author use a certain label for the book in marketing purpose. If there actually is something old, genuine and earlier not revealed in the content, is quite another thing.


Perhaps, maybe, I don't know.. But I might buy the book! :D

Nice footage I hadn't seen before on that clip, so thanks for putting that up JB.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:44 am, edited 4 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby yeniseri on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:53 am

The Yang Taiji CIrcle and Square are interesting! Al Claim to have the real juju and that is nice.
1. Hidden Snake Style Yang Family
2. Michuan Secret Yang Family
3. Imperial Secret Yang Style
4. Secret Yang Family of XXXXX

Let's just choose one and be happy. I would say forget about "Secret" "Hidden" and just look for what is taught and if you like it, then do waht Nike says.
Bob Boyd, I have heard, did study with Yang Sau Chung, so this seems to be excellent in that regard, GO for it!
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby cloudz on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:42 am

Bob Boyd, I have heard, did study with Yang Sau Chung, so this seems to be excellent in that regard, GO for it!


Bob Boyd is Ip Tai Taks lineage disciple, who in turn was YSC lineage disciple. In terms of credentials and credibility, that's not bad.. YSC didn't have a male heir, and by some accounts Ip T Tak took on that role.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:00 am

cloudz wrote:
Bob Boyd, I have heard, did study with Yang Sau Chung, so this seems to be excellent in that regard, GO for it!


Bob Boyd is Ip Tai Taks lineage disciple, who in turn was YSC lineage disciple. In terms of credentials and credibility, that's not bad.. YSC didn't have a male heir, and by some accounts Ip T Tak took on that role.


You know, it's fascinating and he seems do be a nice and humble fellow. Nevertheless, who he practiced with say nothing about his own skill or his intention. A lot of teachers who are disciples of great masters are just doing linkongjin stuff and turn their students into qi-huggers. However, I will follow this guy with great interest. Very interesting stuff could come out if this and hopefully it will benefit the tai chi world. I can only hope and wish and then the future will tell.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:05 am

yeniseri wrote:The Yang Taiji CIrcle and Square are interesting! Al Claim to have the real juju and that is nice.
1. Hidden Snake Style Yang Family
2. Michuan Secret Yang Family
3. Imperial Secret Yang Style
4. Secret Yang Family of XXXXX


Actually, we can tell from Li Ruidong's style (Li Taiji), a few older Yang lineages, and lineages from Yongnian, that the Yang family did have more material, which they would not commonly teach to strangers. So at least some of the claims ought to be true, or maybe based on other people's true claims ;D
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby yieldingxxx on Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:51 am

Well, just for contrast, sharp contrast in fact, here's what another disciple (H WON GIM) in the YSC lineage has to say about Mr. Boyd (VT) and his so-called "Snake Style" Yang Tai Chi. You be the judge....

From H. Won Gim:

A few words on the allleged [Tai Chi] Snake Style...from VT. (boyd)

There is NO such style called 'Snake' style in Classical Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan system. There are three forms and three frames. In my opinion, the alleged 'Snake' style was created by either Ip Tai Tak SIBAK, his second disciple [VT], or in collaboration of the two. I met Ip SIBAK and Fong SISOU in Hong Kong, in April of 1993. Meeting them was indeed an inspiration. To be in the presence of the two who have appeared in Yang SIGONG's (Yang Sau Chung's) book was awesome, and not to mention having an occassion to eat dim sum with them.

In the 90's, I did my share of the abundant Tai Chi Chuan fact findings. The result...the findings have formed my conclusions that I still adamantly believe in, today. Understand the internal principles of Classical Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan in order to perceive any deviated versions of Tai Chi Chuan.

Some anomalies about the 'Snake' style...

allegedly, it is reserved for the 1st disciple, but VT is the 2nd disciple.
it [Snake] is never mentioned anywhere in the entire history of Classical Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan.
Yang SIGONG never mentioned it.
Ip SIBAK never mentioned it to my SIFU's son while he was visiting Ip SIBAK in all those years, in Hong Kong.
Yang TAI SIGONG never taught it to his first disciple.
there is no record of the previous Yang masters having taught it to any of their first disciples.
the ONLY person who ever mentions 'Snake' style is VT, and conveniently, he is the only person who possess this suspicious secret form.
the explanation of 'Snake' style is entirely in body mechanics, thus external and not internal.
no emphasis on the internal principles of the enrichment of 'Peng Kieng', the establishment of 'Chun Kieng', or the ascension of 'Neung'.
the lack of emphasis on 'Dynamic' push hand, 'Cham Jong', and Tai Chi Fast Form, most likely, due to lack of understanding of the internal principles of these curriculum.
the breaking of the tradition of the intended transmission to the 1st disciple only (perhaps, because it was taught to the 2nd disciple that the latter doesn't need to adhere strictly to the avow of the 1st disciple transmission)...of course, there is some lame explanation about sharing it with the world*.
the violation of the 1st disciple tradition by Ip SIBAK, and the suspicious nature of the decision on the violation of the tradition.

Rooting, core muscle training, etc, are nothing new to the 'medium' frame/tiger form'. In Classical Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan training repertoire, the rooting, the internal muscle training, and the other inner mechanical trainings are done through 'Dynamic' Power push hand and 'Cham Jong', and not through the external body mechanics of 'Snake' style.

*By the way, you too can represent 'Snake' style immediately, after having attended VT seminar just once! That's how much he wants to share the 'Snake' style with the world.

And his latest entries:

More fabrications for the purpose of self-promotion from Robert Boyd. A book. He is truly relentless in his self-promotion, isn't he? I only wish he was as relentless in showing his internal power, instead of him playing patty-cake with his students and writing insignificant books. More videos of IP SIBAK, but where is Boyd's videos. If he wants to promote how powerful his dubious system is, then wouldn't it be more convincing if he had shown some videos of his power, instead of having hidden away in some remote vault in Vermont? I wait for that moment, to be enlightened of his knowledge and skill. Instead of letting the public perceive his internal power, what we see now is Boyd's NEW book, as if we need more taichi books to further confuse already mislead taichi hopefuls. But, it doesn't surprise me, as it is expected from people like him. More of self-promoting taichi mumbo-jumbo, like so many of his unconvincing Youtube videos. Obviously he is cashing in on his teacher's legacy; maybe he needs to pay off what he promised. Maybe, he can send me a copy; then, we'll really have some fun.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You openly dare to undermine the system, do you? Do you expect me to idly standby and let you get away with your rubbish? Did you really expect the other practitioners of Classical Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan to have a shallow understanding like yourself once had, not that you now have any better understanding of the internal principles of Tai Chi Chuan than before? Do you really think that what you know now is the true understanding of Tai Chi Chuan? If you did, you would readily perceive that the things you talk about are not the truly advanced principles of Tai Chi Chuan. What you know is merely external, mechanical explanations of body movements; furthermore, your explanations are not even that profound because they lack the basic principle of 'stillness in motion'. The glimpses of the exercises that are shown in those videos are no big deal, by the way, because I know them as well, though not all. So, don't think that you have some awesome, inner secrets of the family treasures. Until you are capable of understanding what 'Neng' is, you should really restrain yourself from embarrassing yourself with your misguided, limited knowledge. Then again, I don't think you understand even what 'Peng Kieng' is. I'll even bet that my students understand 'Peng Kieng' more profoundly than you ever will.


http://www.nytaichi.com/thoughts.htm

http://www.nytaichi.com/contents.htm
Last edited by yieldingxxx on Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Dajenarit on Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:34 pm

Look. If people wanna modify or create their own style of Tai Chi then be honest about it. I believe there is a market for it like there was for Modified Wing Chun back in the 90's. People accepted it for what it was and were happy with it. Better yet they could openly evolve because they weren't tied to tradition.

That being said. The onus would be on the founder to prove it's worth to potential student. That might probably involve hopping in the ring a few times. Also you might have to explain what you modified and the reasoning behind it, and proving in the process that you have a grasp of the original principles.

I think for alot of Tai Chi people its just easier to live off the legacy of the Old Tai Chi families instead of owning their own material.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Michael Babin on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:43 pm

The taiji world would be a better place if more teachers were willing to be honest about where their teaching material comes from instead of hiding behind a lineage or making vague insinuations about the existence of 'secrets' that only they have access to.

But then again, I don't have a "lineage' so it's easy for me to say that. :-)

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