Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby Andy_S on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:03 am

Hulei-jia (Thunder Style) is the newest style of Taiji - or, at least, of Chen Clan Taijiquan. (Or, if you prefer, Chan Clan martial arts).

Why did the founder decide to create a "new" style? (Or did he decide to create a new style? Or was it simply his own personal frame that became a "style" via his students?)

What elements did he add or subtract to the orthodox Chen xiaojia frame that was his template? Where did he get this new or different material?

What are the main characteristics of this martial art?

It has not spread far or wide: Apart from Wangedan (actually, a "suburb" of Chenjiagou) I only know the Taiwanese groups - who, for some reason, seem to mix it with Zhaobao, a different sub-style again - and there is a group teaching it in Hong Kong. Why has it not spread more widely? Are today's teachers (there were two schools, in the homes of two masters, in the village when I was there a few years ago) teaching the full monty? Given their closeness to the founder of their art, do they have the full monty?

Apparently, the Taiwanese teachers, who teach other styles of Chen Taijiquan, keep the Huleijia as the last thing they teach. Why is this so? (Is this so?)

Assuming one can find a teacher, Hulei is terrifically difficult to learn. What makes this art difficult to learn? Or, what makes it more difficult than other styles of Chen Taijiquan?
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby taiwandeutscher on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:37 am

As a beginner in the art, I have only limited experience.

Of course, I would love the hear answers to your first question.

An element, I never encountered in any other style of TJQ is the felxibility in foot work, bufa, nothing about rooting, the dantian explosions (also different rotations to what I know from Chen village), shatter the whole body, catapulte one's body forwards or backwards. Rooting in a Yang/Chen (sinking in) sense is even seen as a bad habit, which fixes you on the spot, nearly like fixed step phs.

In my other practices of Yang/Chen, the biggest problem form choreographed material to free sparring has always been the flexibility in footwork. Even Huobu tuishou didn't do the job in training the bridging and entering questions, what seems to have a different approach in Hulei. Still needs to followed up further, will see.

Taiwan Hulei from Wang Jinrang was quite clearly pure Hulei, He style (Zhaobao) inclusions in those southern TW schools are only 1 generation old. Both forms are seperated clearly, though, and I'm not clear if anyone here has the Hulei 2nd street, so it might be an addition to fill a gap?

Zhang Suisheng has a vast curriculum, it may be different from orthodox Chen, not as many forms (he git 11 levels for one form), does different weapons and additional exercises. Full monty? Can't answer that!

Well, as said in another threat, interesting times and a long way to go.
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby kayakujutsu on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:00 am

And does it have any other elements of other Taijiquan offshoots like Sun, Tung, and Wu. How about elements from other internal arts or systems as obscure as Chang Naizhou`s. The inquiries could be endless.
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:58 am

As a casual observer, what I had noticed about Zhang Suisheng's Bu Fa, is that there is a springiness to his legs and structure that is slightly similar to high level XYQ - much more so than any other Taiji style (though he is, of course, more relaxed overall). In particular, one could compare the springiness that catapults his legs to the principle of 'Chicken Step' in XYQ, with some movements (not to be confused with XinYi LiuHe's Chicken Steps). This is not at all common among Taiji teachers, and often entirely absent. The main difference from XYQ being that Zhang emphasizes the side concept usually when moving laterally, while in XYQ it's usually used when moving forwards/backwards.

Compare leg springiness between masters Zhang Suisheng and Feng Zhenbao, in terms of side-to-side or forward-backward momentum:





I believe it to be the same mechanism in that one uses the same stretch reflexes between the legs for these actions.

Hermann - do you concur?
Last edited by jonathan.bluestein on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby JusticeZero on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:13 am

I'm not sure because the structure is different and the clothes are loose, but the fast foot movement I saw in the second clip looks a bit like what I get when I try to use the lower core of my torso to project my foot downward into a position suddenly. Something of a whip-crack of the hip and leg originating from the abdominals. The arms and shoulders counterbalance, so you should be able to see a bit of it there.
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby kshurika on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:59 am

It has been related to me that Lin Ah Long is the best Hulei teacher in Taiwan. It's the only thing he practices and he's done it almost all his life. I also was told that he's not the most pleasant guy to deal with - and this from someone who gets along with almost everyone.
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby taiwandeutscher on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:45 pm

You mean Lin Along 林阿龍?
Then your information is totally off!
This guy teaches ZMQ in Taibei and is also into lingkongjin!

Jonathan, in some places it might be. JusticeZero is quite close with his comment, on both!
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby kshurika on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:31 pm

Taiwandeutscher wrote:

You mean Lin Along 林阿龍?
Then your information is totally off!
This guy teaches ZMQ in Taibei and is also into lingkongjin!



To the best of my knowledge there are a few people in the U.S. who know and teach Zhaobao (notice that I wrote "to the best of my knowledge"). By that same measure, there is only one person who knows the complete Huleijia in the U.S. His name is Tim Cartmell and he lived for about 11 years where you're living now . He studied with Lin Ah Long, not with some guy who teaches ZMQ stuff, or some other thing that no one's ever heard of. The Lin Ah Long of whom I wrote knows only Yang style and Hulei and has practiced it his entire life. If you go to this link and go to the fourth photo down, you'll see Tim standing next to Lin Ah Long.

http://www.shenwu.com/background.htm


Perhaps if you looked this teacher up (remembering that he is not supposed to be a feel-good kind of guy), you might develop more than what you described as " limited experience".
Last edited by kshurika on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby taiwandeutscher on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:10 pm

Well, maybe same pronounciation, different characters?

And true, I'm not T. C., but I live here now for 15yrs non-stop., and although my Hulei experience is limited, I have trained here alltogether 20yrs.

Tim's times here have long passed, and the only true Hulei lineages always have been down south, where he probably never went. All northern teachers gave up on Hulei, after seeing Wang Jinrang from Gaoxiong, in those circles, Lin Along, so Tim's biography, taught Yang and Zhaobao, he looked old in 1984, wonder whether he is still around, and nothing is said about Hulei, but I will inquire further.

Hopefully your experience is always very abundant!
Last edited by taiwandeutscher on Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby kshurika on Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:17 am

No, my experience with Hulei is non-existent. I don't have the flexibility or the patience to get through the preparatory exercises. Tim is married to a woman from Taiwan and he returns there every year to brush up on lineages and to visit the places he's never been. In all likelihood, he hopes someday to become as knowledgeable as you and doesn't want to slip into Taiwanese irrelevency. I was just throwing out a name that I thought might be of interest to Andy_S.

On another subject, I'm full-blooded German (even though I speak a total of six words in the language). I remember my father telling me that much of the world regards Germans as smug, arrogant, superior know-it-alls. We know better, though, don't we?
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby taiwandeutscher on Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:54 am

You still don't know the difference between Zhaobao and Hulei, do you?
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby kshurika on Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:35 am

Still? Actually I do and I don't believe that my ability to discern has come up previously.

I converse directly with Mr. Cartmell three to four times a week on a wide variety of martial arts-related topics. Some have no pertinence to what I'm studying (i.e. Zhaobao / Hulei). I find all of them fascinating, though. Through the miracle of the Internet, you could remove your stick temporarily, sit down at your computer and get in touch with him. You'll find him very forthcoming with helpful information that is far more accurate, reliable and interesting than anything you would get from me. You'll also find him to be considerably more modest than either of us.

Again, I was just throwing out a name to Andy_S. I apologize if in doing so I've threatened your perceived dominance of subjects Taiwanese.
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:44 am

kshurika wrote:If you go to this link and go to the fourth photo down, you'll see Tim standing next to Lin Ah Long.

http://www.shenwu.com/background.htm

This guy's name is Lin Ah Lung and as far as I can tell he looks like the same guy in that photo, same eyes, although his hair is gray now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc0VgBxva74




(There's a good 400+ clips of him on that youtube channel. I just posted the first one that came up.)



.
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby everything on Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:30 pm

that was interesting. I couldn't quite make out what analogy he was making at the end there. Something about how did the trees get the leaves and so big and you cannot see the process
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Re: Huleijia Taijiquan Discussion

Postby kshurika on Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:01 pm

Good find. I've seen his name spelled both ways (in fact, it's that way on Tim's website - the photo caption and the interview). I haven't had much time to look at them, but I hope there are some in which he's not just chatting with students. He seems like a nice enough guy, but I've heard that.................................. I'm just going to let it go.

I'll ask Tim on Monday.
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