Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Greg J on Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:49 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
I probably won't post it on this forum, though. After I return to the West I'll have no reason to subject my work so such spiteful scrutiny. After seeing what others posted as good swordsmanship and denouncing my work it is quite obvious that they have a lot to learn themselves.



Well, I for one hope you continue to post videos and thoughts here. I agree that sometimes the tone people use is offensive. But even in the worst cases, there tends to be something worthwhile that comes out of the exchange. Also, seeing and learning more about your journey and martial arts training have been really inspiring.

MaartenSFS wrote:
Have you got a Dog Brothers video like that handy? I'd love to see it. I like their stuff.



All of their commercially available instructional videos (especially the ones made by Crafty Dog) follow that basic format, within the context of whatever weapon(s) or concepts are being explored. You can find downloads for sale on their website.

MaartenSFS wrote:
I'm also working on not getting hit during my set-ups and being more unpredictable.



I'm still working on that too. :)
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:38 am

MaartenSFS wrote:I reckon the Jian didn't face many Dao after the Tang Dynasty. Except for those shorter, heavier village protection Jian. Those were crude and probably used more like Dao, though. A lot of Jian became ornamental or ceremonial after that. Jianfa is more of an ideal than what actually happens in combat, methinks.
.

As I have understood it, back somewhere in history when the European long sword clashed with the Asian curved sword in battle the curved sword fared better
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:03 am

The length of swords increased along the advancement of metallurgy, the rapier is a fine example long, thin but yet sturdy. it was made to be used but of course as a dueling weapon.Wonder if the Jian was the Rapiers equal during that time period. The very ancient Chinese swords seem to be very similar and technical similar to the Gladius an later European swords such as Viking swords
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:15 am

Greg J wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
I probably won't post it on this forum, though. After I return to the West I'll have no reason to subject my work so such spiteful scrutiny. After seeing what others posted as good swordsmanship and denouncing my work it is quite obvious that they have a lot to learn themselves.



Well, I for one hope you continue to post videos and thoughts here. I agree that sometimes the tone people use is offensive. But even in the worst cases, there tends to be something worthwhile that comes out of the exchange. Also, seeing and learning more about your journey and martial arts training have been really inspiring.

MaartenSFS wrote:
Have you got a Dog Brothers video like that handy? I'd love to see it. I like their stuff.



All of their commercially available instructional videos (especially the ones made by Crafty Dog) follow that basic format, within the context of whatever weapon(s) or concepts are being explored. You can find downloads for sale on their website.

MaartenSFS wrote:
I'm also working on not getting hit during my set-ups and being more unpredictable.



I'm still working on that too. :)

Well, your kind words are appreciated and I'll certainly take it into consideration. ;) I just feel like I'm heading in a different direction. I should really try to find some swordsmanship forums or something.

I'll check out more Dog Brothers stuff. There can be no harm in that.

By the way, what type of sword do you train with?
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:16 am

Trick wrote:The length of swords increased along the advancement of metallurgy, the rapier is a fine example long, thin but yet sturdy. it was made to be used but of course as a dueling weapon.Wonder if the Jian was the Rapiers equal during that time period. The very ancient Chinese swords seem to be very similar and technical similar to the Gladius an later European swords such as Viking swords

I have always thought that too. Perhaps it is because that's all that they were able to make back in those days??
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Giles on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:45 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
I probably won't post it on this forum, though. After I return to the West I'll have no reason to subject my work so such spiteful scrutiny. After seeing what others posted as good swordsmanship and denouncing my work it is quite obvious that they have a lot to learn themselves.


Well, when opening the thread you specifically asked for comments, and my impression is that some of the people who bring a good deal of experience in practical swordsmanship, such as Jaime G und Paul Andrews, have given honest and useful feedback from their perspectives. I can well imagine that some of what they wrote about your current approach and skills felt painful, but I didn't sense any spitefulness or denouncement in their feedback. Spite and denouncement are about wanting to hurt, to damage, for the sake of it.
You're really working hard at your stuff and achieving results. I admire that. Here's a metaphor: If you receive a blow from a sparring partner and you realise he's actually trying to injure you, then you can get angry or (maybe better) stop the encounter right away. But if you're sparring and the sparring partner lands a couple on you in the spirit of training because he found some gaps in your technique, then even if it hurts you breathe deeply, maybe say "nice one" and continue the exchange. So too for invited verbal feedback.
Sorry if this seems preachy, but I've been there myself in the past and I know in the long run it's helpful to invest a little less ego in one's own training and art...
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby GrahamB on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:54 am

Nice post Giles. "You can't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need". - Mick Jagger.
"People in this country have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove, 2016
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby jaime_g on Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:48 am

Regarding rapiers, it would be a mistake to think on them as duelling weapons

Cold blood duels (challenging someone, fighting following a ritual) are much more typical of 1800's. That duel format was unacceptable in most european countries during many many centuries. It was associated with premeditate murder and had so many negative aspects that even in 1800's (cold blood duel golden era) duellists had to establish a lot of rules to create a "safe" duel and in many countries it was required to ask for king's consent or autorithies looking the other way or just doing everything in secret.

In rapier's era, it was much more common to have hot blood fights, fighting in the spot. That was considered as self defence, acceptable and legitimate. So most rapier fights happened on the street in self defence environments, not duels. There are a lot of techniques for using rapiers against longswords, two swords common combination between bodyguards), two handed swords, multiple opponents, etc.

fighting against heavy weapons with a rapier and later a smallsword was common. It is one of the reasons these weapons look for having blade contact and blade control, trying to use open footwork against weapons with longer reach isnt very clever. Think on trying to do the same without weapons,for example on boxing. Trying to dodge and fight at long range against a longer reach boxer that delivers jabs at will is painful. Smothering the space worked much better, hence the "sticky" fencing. There were also training exercises to avoid the problems caused by beats against the blade.

I've never read anything about the Chinese wars with the British, but I know that the Indian swordsmen gave the Brits hell.


Completely true. British military fencing during 1800's was often neglected and poorly taught and many countries looked down at them for that.

Despite that, British real power always was on their navy, not their swordmanship, and they managed really really well with that. In Spain we had probably the best fencers and infantry soldiers that Europe has ever seen, but we forgot that our empire depended on controlling the seas. British were more clever than us
Last edited by jaime_g on Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:21 am

You're right, regarding the rapiers, but they aren't really suited to melee combat either. I think that they are very interesting, though. I have nothing against them. Totally different than what I do, different strategies for different tools. Being Dutch, the sources from back home interest me a lot.

In my post where I was talking about avoiding binding, I was referring to the longsword video that you posted. I would be interested to hear what you say about the things that I pointed out.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:25 am

Giles wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
I probably won't post it on this forum, though. After I return to the West I'll have no reason to subject my work so such spiteful scrutiny. After seeing what others posted as good swordsmanship and denouncing my work it is quite obvious that they have a lot to learn themselves.


Well, when opening the thread you specifically asked for comments, and my impression is that some of the people who bring a good deal of experience in practical swordsmanship, such as Jaime G und Paul Andrews, have given honest and useful feedback from their perspectives. I can well imagine that some of what they wrote about your current approach and skills felt painful, but I didn't sense any spitefulness or denouncement in their feedback. Spite and denouncement are about wanting to hurt, to damage, for the sake of it.
You're really working hard at your stuff and achieving results. I admire that. Here's a metaphor: If you receive a blow from a sparring partner and you realise he's actually trying to injure you, then you can get angry or (maybe better) stop the encounter right away. But if you're sparring and the sparring partner lands a couple on you in the spirit of training because he found some gaps in your technique, then even if it hurts you breathe deeply, maybe say "nice one" and continue the exchange. So too for invited verbal feedback.
Sorry if this seems preachy, but I've been there myself in the past and I know in the long run it's helpful to invest a little less ego in one's own training and art...

I asked for comments, not insults. Paul Andrews at least had the courtesy to put some thought behind his words and, whilst I may not agree with everything he said, there was truth there for sure. I always celebrate when my sparring partners give me a good fight. Shitting on my hard work does not evoke the same reaction, though.

Still, I should know what to expect from some of the denizens of the forum..
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:46 am

jaime_g wrote:Regarding rapiers, it would be a mistake to think on them as duelling weapons

Cold blood duels (challenging someone, fighting following a ritual) are much more typical of 1800's. That duel format was unacceptable in most european countries during many many centuries. It was associated with premeditate murder and had so many negative aspects that even in 1800's (cold blood duel golden era) duellists had to establish a lot of rules to create a "safe" duel and in many countries it was required to ask for king's consent or autorithies looking the other way or just doing everything in secret.

In rapier's era, it was much more common to have hot blood fights, fighting in the spot. That was considered as self defence, acceptable and legitimate. So most rapier fights happened on the street in self defence environments, not duels. There are a lot of techniques for using rapiers against longswords, two swords common combination between bodyguards), two handed swords, multiple opponents, etc.

fighting against heavy weapons with a rapier and later a smallsword was common. It is one of the reasons these weapons look for having blade contact and blade control, trying to use open footwork against weapons with longer reach isnt very clever. Think on trying to do the same without weapons,for example on boxing. Trying to dodge and fight at long range against a longer reach boxer that delivers jabs at will is painful. Smothering the space worked much better, hence the "sticky" fencing. There were also training exercises to avoid the problems caused by beats against the blade.

I've never read anything about the Chinese wars with the British, but I know that the Indian swordsmen gave the Brits hell.


Completely true. British military fencing during 1800's was often neglected and poorly taught and many countries looked down at them for that.

Despite that, British real power always was on their navy, not their swordmanship, and they managed really really well with that. In Spain we had probably the best fencers and infantry soldiers that Europe has ever seen, but we forgot that our empire depended on controlling the seas. British were more clever than us

Thanks for these insights very interesting
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:53 am

So here one can wonder if the Chinese Jian where used in the very same way as the rapier of that time period, or maybe the Jian had as mentioned earlier evolved to be an ornamental Sword
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:59 am

Probably both..
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Greg J on Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:05 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
By the way, what type of sword do you train with?



Bolo, Espada y Daga, Golok, German longsword, Arming sword, and Dussack. Basically a combination of Filipino, Silat, and HEMA weapons.

Best,
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Finny on Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:17 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Are you serious or trolling? For starters our training swords weigh a lot more than those floppy noodles (and are a third heavier than the heaviest Kendo Shinai) and are rigid (almost as rigid as a synthetic blade), so thrusts are possible and can be painful and leave massive bruises. Slashes and cleaving cuts can sting like a mother fucker, even through clothes, and can also leave bruises.


Why would I be trolling? I said in response to Graham's post that it "looks like less formal kendo" that "it's called chambara (thanks Ian - and happy birthday BTW!)". Is chambara not 'less formal kendo'?

And judging by the following five pages of discussion - the notion that your 'swordsmanship' looks like spochan is clearly a common one.. so again - why would you suggest I'm trolling?

MaartenSFS wrote:Your ignorance is disturbing and, frankly, disappointing. Do I need to invest a lot of money and do it with blunt metal blades and heavy armour for it to not be a game??? The techniques are identical. Do you need to hear the clangs of steel clashing? Or see arms lopped off?


Well thank you for the insult, but I'll stick to the topic at hand - clearly from my perspective your ignorance is telling.. and I've been practicing (legitimate) swordsmanship for many years more than you have...

In what way would 'doing it with blunt metal blades and heavy armour' make it 'not a game'?

The techniques are identical? You fight an armoured opponent with techniques identical to those you use against an unarmoured opponent?

What would the clang of steel clashing mean to me? Arms lopped off would certainly make it no game though.

MaartenSFS wrote:We go full contact with no rules except to avoid hitting the back of the head and balls. The weapons are heavy enough to seriously injure someone. What more do you want? I invite you to test my swordsmanship skills any time, anywhere. If you want to compare it to a children's game at least have the balls to follow up your words with action.


You 'go full contact with no rules' ... hitting each other with padded sticks.

Do you think your 'technique would be identical' if you were fighting with real swords?

And in response to your juvenile 'invitation'... I don't fight people with swords, what with it being illegal and all. And I don't play games of tag with sticks, fun though that may be.
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