Avoiding double-heaviness

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:47 pm

johnwang wrote:It may be easier to discuss with another example. In the following clip, I can simplify my move into 2 steps. I try to coordinate my

1. right foot with my left arm downward parry and right arm comb hair.
2. left foot with my left arm warp and right arm head lock.

My left foot land and my right forearm strike on my opponent's head at the same time. If I land my foot first and strike later, I'll lose that "dropping force" with my body weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfR-yJL ... e=youtu.be

There is no downward parry, arm warp, head lock in the clips. So, let's put downward parry, arm warp, and head lock aside for the moment.

For clarity, let's talk about "punch and foot land at the same time" with the straight right in the clips we both posted. Rather than something that wasn't posted.

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Do you disagree with the baseball video and believe that if "hand and foot land at the same time," the throw will be faster than 97 mph? If yes, why?

Is the third fight clip straight right with hip, shoulder and body rotation and forward momentum weaker than your baji video straight right? If yes, why?

IMO, to throw a baseball ball is different from to generate the maximum power. When you throw a baseball, your body rotation is linear speed and not exponential speed as slow-fast.

Thanks.

What's your opinion on the other question?
johnwang wrote:The reason is also simple. I can take advantage on my body weight (sinking force) and forward momentum.

marvin8 wrote:Is the third fight clip straight right with hip, shoulder and body rotation and forward momentum weaker than your baji video straight right? If yes, why?



Here is the kinetic chain punch. Henderson jab feints to head, jabs to body—which allows him to generate much more power out of hip rotation for his right:
Image
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:00 pm

marvin8 wrote:Here is the kinetic chain punch. Henderson jab feints to head, jabs to body—which allows him to generate much more power out of hip rotation for his right:
Image

If he can combine "hip rotation" and "foot landing" as 1 move instead of 2 moves, his punch can be much more powerful. 1 is better than 1, 2.

If his opponent uses right downward parry and left comb hair, his opponent can block his right punch. IMO, downward parry and upward comb hair should always come in pair.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8617
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:52 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Here is the kinetic chain punch. Henderson jab feints to head, jabs to body—which allows him to generate much more power out of hip rotation for his right:
Image

If he can combine "hip rotation" and "foot landing" as 1 move instead of 2 moves, his punch can be much more powerful.

1 is better than 1, 2.

It is not possible to "combine 'hip rotation' and 'foot landing' as 1 move (simultaneously)." You can only include "hip rotation" before the foot lands (baji) or after the foot lands (MMA).

Baji does not include the additional power of the kinetic chain, rotation of hips and shoulders, after the foot lands (as evidenced in the baji video), while MMA does:

No weight shift or "shoulder or hip rotation" after the foot lands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1exzy-JBJM

Weight shift, shoulder and hip rotation and kinetic chain after the foot lands:
Image

Therefore per your comment on "hip rotation" the "foot first and then punch after that" generates more power, correct?
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:29 pm

The Baji back hand punch power generation can be looked at this way.

1. Before foot landing - The power generated from the counter-force from the ground. The hip then start to rotate. The body start to twist.
2. During foot landing - The hip rotation has reached to the maximum.
3. After foot landing - The bullet has fired out of the gun. The current power generation is over. The next power generation will start.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8617
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:35 pm

johnwang wrote:It can be looked at this way.

1. Before foot landing - The power generated from the counter-force from the ground. The hip then start to rotate. The body start to twist.
2. During foot landing - The hip rotation has reached to the maximum.
3. After foot landing - The bullet has fired out of the gun. The current power generation is over. The next power generation will start.

Please reference your original baji video and the original MMA video with the steps you just explained, as it is easier to follow. I have done this here:
marvin8 wrote:No weight shift or "shoulder or hip rotation" after the foot lands (baji): ...

Weight shift, shoulder and hip rotation and kinetic chain after the foot lands (MMA):
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:26 am

johnwang wrote:The Baji back hand punch power generation can be looked at this way.

1. Before foot landing - The power generated from the counter-force from the ground. The hip then start to rotate. The body start to twist.
2. During foot landing - The hip rotation has reached to the maximum.

Because hip rotation is completed at foot landing, power is leaked downwards away from the horizontal force towards the opponent, as you stated here:
johnwang wrote:The reason is also simple. I can take advantage on my body weight (sinking force) and forward momentum....

If I land my foot first and strike later, I'll lose that "dropping force" with my body weight.


johnwang wrote:3. After foot landing - The bullet has fired out of the gun. The current power generation is over. The next power generation will start.

Because "power generation is over" at foot landing, you have eliminated the critical component of weight transfer and shoulder and trunk rotation after the lead leg lands—that transforms vertical ground reaction force to horizontal punch force.

This essential stage of the kinetic chain can be seen at 3:45 of the "Tim Lincecum 97 mph fastball analysis" video, as well as in the following two clips:

Image
Image

Eliminating this critical stage in the kinetic chain is a big loss in "back hand" or straight punch power generation as the following study supports.

Excerpts from "Kinematic and kinetic analysis of throwing a straight punch: the role of trunk
rotation in delivering a powerful straight punch," https://efsupit.ro/images/stories/30dec ... %20287.pdf:
RAT TONG-IAM1, PORNTHEP RACHANAVY2, CHAIPAT LAWSIRIRAT on December 08, 2017 wrote:The result showed straight punches had 3 stages, i.e., (1) starting position, (2) lead toe off, and (3) lead toe in. The results suggested that the final stage, lead toe in, was the most important in delivering powerful straight punches, and boxers used trunk rotation to transform vertical ground reaction force to horizontal punch force....

Image

At this stage, boxers used the lead leg as a pivot point and executed straight punches such that only lead leg supported the body weight and the rear leg bore no GRF. At this stage, GRF of the rear leg decreased, while GRF of the lead leg increased, which was exactly opposite from the starting position or the first stage. From Figure 1d, the directions of GRF of the lead leg and punch force were not in the same direction. As a result, the participants utilized the lead leg as a break to stabilize their movement.... As seen in Figure 2, the kinetic chain of straight punches occurred after 70% of total punching time meaning that the whole kinetic chain was created and ended at this final stage....

Trunk Rotation in Straight Punches
Image

Image

Image
Figure 1 shows phases of straight punches and GRFs for both legs.

Trunk rotation played significant role in transferring kinetic chain from the lower extremity to the upper extremity. Our results showed that the trunk was relatively unmoved at the beginning of punching as shown in Figure 2. The movement of trunk started approximately after 70% of total punching time (the right panel of Figure 2). The angular velocity tended to increase after this point. The participants, then, sped up trunk rotation after 80% of total punching time until impact.

The trunk rotation played crucial role in LTI or the final stage of punching. At LTI, the displacement angle of trunk rotation was greatest (at 80% of punching time). Angular velocity of trunk rotation increased as GRF of the lead leg increased while GRF of the rear leg decreased. The lead leg acted as a pivot point, while the rear leg pushed the trunk and the whole body of boxers forward to create punching momentum and, thus, punch force. Therefore, trunk rotation mechanically transferred vertical ground reaction forces to horizontal punching force. The peak angular velocity of trunk rotation was achieved at impact....

Image

The final stage, which was lead toe in, was crucial in delivering powerful force.

Now with the clips and study, would you agree that, with the straight punch, "punch and foot land at the same time" generates less power than "foot first and then punch after that (properly sequenced kinetic chain punch)?" If not, what part of the clips or study do you disagree with?
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Jaspalfie on Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:18 pm

From my understanding double-weightedness has nothing to with weight. Its about maintaining the internal separation of the substantial and insubstantial and their opposite directions irrespective of what you are doing or what stance you are in. You can stand on one leg and still be double weighted if you cannot maintain those two opposite internal forces. This principle is related to internal control and not physical movement or distribution in weight so you also can be in movement and also double-weighted.
Last edited by Jaspalfie on Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Jaspalfie
Santi
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Appledog on Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:14 pm

Jaspalfie wrote:From my understanding double-weightedness has nothing to with weight. Its about maintaining the internal separation of the substantial and insubstantial and their opposite directions irrespective of what you are doing or what stance you are in. You can stand on one leg and still be double weighted if you cannot maintain those two opposite internal forces. This principle is related to internal control and not physical movement or distribution in weight so you also can be in movement and also double-weighted.


Let me change what I said earlier and just point out that worrying about double heaviness is like reaching for the far and avoiding the near. It takes so much work to get to the point where you have to worry about double heaviness that by the time you have to worry about it you will know what it is. I think that is the point of explaining things in terms of legs and weight; that is what most people should be working on and not double heaviness. It's sort of a "mu" answer.

Edit: Wew this is such a difficult topic to discuss. If I came off sounding negative or deflationary I didn't mean it; actually I really liked your answer. This is a topic that needs to be explored more.
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Appledog
Huajing
 
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Jaspalfie on Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:29 am

Let me change what I said earlier and just point out that worrying about double heaviness is like reaching for the far and avoiding the near. It takes so much work to get to the point where you have to worry about double heaviness that by the time you have to worry about it you will know what it is. I think that is the point of explaining things in terms of legs and weight; that is what most people should be working on and not double heaviness.


With the greatest respect I disagree. The separation of substantial and insubstantial is fundamental in Taiji as it is the driving force in internal movement. It is something that should be focused on equally if not more in the early stages as it is the harder skill to develop. As an extension of this, double-weightedness (where there is no internal movement) means there is no Taiji and therefore only an external shell, no different to external arts. Achieving the lack of double-weightedness should be prominent in the mind. Developing external movement such as the form really shouldn't come until competency is achieved with internal movement in stillness. Then, following from that you develop internal movement in movement and then in application. Quite logical really.
Last edited by Jaspalfie on Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jaspalfie
Santi
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:59 am

Jaspalfie wrote: The separation of substantial and insubstantial is fundamental in Taiji as it is the driving force in internal movement. ... Achieving the lack of double-weightedness should be prominent in the mind. Developing external movement such as the form really shouldn't come until competency is achieved with internal movement in stillness. Then, following from that you develop internal movement in movement and then in application. Quite logical really.


I do agree with the post in general, though I would express the meaning in the highlighted sentence differently. I don't know if it's the driving force, but it's certainly an important aspect.

Yin and Yang should be clearly separated and understood in all aspects.

Personally, in many situations, I would rather say "double active" than "double heavy". Double heavy means that you don't know where or how yin and yang should be separated. Mostly, double heaviness happens when you go yang against yang or when you add a yang element or something substantial where there is already yang and where you should be yin or insubstantial.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby willie on Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:07 am

thepoeticedda wrote:A lot of those Practical Method videos show this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6w6aKET9Ho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skgEbjTaHrk

Both of these are good examples of double weighted vs single weighted when talking about upper and lower half of the body. In both of these, the bad version is trying to push everything forward at the same time and the good version are variations of keeping the hands still/pulling/yin while moving the legs in then keeping the feet still as you do the push

Both of those examples are terrible. The first clip shows just a double weighted external shove. The second clip is himself breaking his own structure in order to close the distance. Both are incorrect.
willie

 

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Jaspalfie on Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:10 am

Bao wrote:I do agree with the post in general, though I would express the meaning in the highlighted sentence differently. I don't know if it's the driving force, but it's certainly an important aspect.

Yin and Yang should be clearly separated and understood in all aspects.

Personally, in many situations, I would rather say "double active" than "double heavy". Double heavy means that you don't know where or how yin and yang should be separated. Mostly, double heaviness happens when you go yang against yang or when you add a yang element or something substantial where there is already yang and where you should be yin or insubstantial.


I see your point but I think its splitting hairs. If there is no separation then the application of intention will be incorrect if at all, and the skills associated with Taiji will never develop. No engine in a car equals are car that goes nowhere.

I'm not sure if I would agree completely with the "double active" terminology. The insubstantial aspect in my mind also has an "active" component as it is not complete emptiness from my understanding. We may actually be talking about the same thing but getting crossed communication on semantics, alternatively I could be completely wrong.
Jaspalfie
Santi
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Appledog on Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:42 am

Jaspalfie wrote:
Let me change what I said earlier and just point out that worrying about double heaviness is like reaching for the far and avoiding the near. It takes so much work to get to the point where you have to worry about double heaviness that by the time you have to worry about it you will know what it is. I think that is the point of explaining things in terms of legs and weight; that is what most people should be working on and not double heaviness.


With the greatest respect I disagree. The separation of substantial and insubstantial is fundamental in Taiji as it is the driving force in internal movement. It is something that should be focused on equally if not more in the early stages as it is the harder skill to develop. As an extension of this, double-weightedness (where there is no internal movement) means there is no Taiji and therefore only an external shell, no different to external arts. Achieving the lack of double-weightedness should be prominent in the mind. Developing external movement such as the form really shouldn't come until competency is achieved with internal movement in stillness. Then, following from that you develop internal movement in movement and then in application. Quite logical really.


Disagree with what? I may be wrong but you just repeated what I said :) The reason I say not to think about it or worry about it is because if you have a good teacher he is already pointing out to you where to put your weight while you do the form, and that is all you need to know as a beginner. From the standpoint of moving energy, as you say, is not how a beginner should think about it. Once you get good at the form, with precise corrections, moving energy comes about on it's own. Then you are at a different stage automatically.

As a result I always found "double heaviness is where there is no internal movement" to be a bit cloudy. It seems to be explaining things in a way that the asker is not ready to understand. So if we ask what is double heaviness is, it's more than one center. This is why muscle tension causes double heaviness, it creates a proxy dantian somewhere away from the real (physical) dantian. I think that's a better way to explain it because it leads people in the correct direction. Talking about moving energy I think is the opposite of what beginners should be thinking about.
Last edited by Appledog on Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Appledog
Huajing
 
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:54 am

Jaspalfie wrote:
Bao wrote:I do agree with the post in general, though I would express the meaning in the highlighted sentence differently. I don't know if it's the driving force, but it's certainly an important aspect.

Yin and Yang should be clearly separated and understood in all aspects.

Personally, in many situations, I would rather say "double active" than "double heavy". Double heavy means that you don't know where or how yin and yang should be separated. Mostly, double heaviness happens when you go yang against yang or when you add a yang element or something substantial where there is already yang and where you should be yin or insubstantial.


I see your point but I think its splitting hairs. If there is no separation then the application of intention will be incorrect if at all, and the skills associated with Taiji will never develop. No engine in a car equals are car that goes nowhere.

I'm not sure if I would agree completely with the "double active" terminology. The insubstantial aspect in my mind also has an "active" component as it is not complete emptiness from my understanding. We may actually be talking about the same thing but getting crossed communication on semantics, alternatively I could be completely wrong.


I don't believe that "insubstantial" means "mind". There's no need to separate this from something else, it's already separated. The importance of mind is expressed differently.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Avoiding double-heaviness

Postby Jaspalfie on Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:52 pm

Appledog wrote: Disagree with what? I may be wrong but you just repeated what I said :) The reason I say not to think about it or worry about it is because if you have a good teacher he is already pointing out to you where to put your weight while you do the form, and that is all you need to know as a beginner. From the standpoint of moving energy, as you say, is not how a beginner should think about it. Once you get good at the form, with precise corrections, moving energy comes about on it's own. Then you are at a different stage automatically.


Disagree that a beginner does not need to think about moving internal force and disagree that the concept of double-weightedness is not for beginners. I think it is essential that the beginner understands about double-weightedness and the fundamental importance of moving internal force in Taiji. Double-weightedness is not about where to put your weight in answer to your point about a good teacher and as I alluded to in my earlier post the form should not be taught to beginners in my opinion.
.
Jaspalfie
Santi
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:36 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest