Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

[origami_itto]

Adam in particular will tell you that it's not about off balancing, it's about seizing.

[GrahamB]

That’s one of the better Mizner demos I’ve seen - at least the guy is not hopping around like he’s been electrocuted.

What he’s demonstrating of course is Jin using the ground - and as always he’s not actually explaining how to do what he’s doing. They’ll never get it from that explanation.

[Steve James]

Allowing (or enticing) an opponent to unbalance himself is not limited to his physical center of gravity nor does it exclude mental and "spiritual" unbalancing. I can say that physical unbalancing enables a lesser force to overcome a larger one. Of course, leverage is another tool. These ideas are all contained in the "Classics."

The premise of this thread has been the search for a simple tcc strategy. Imo, if an art has punches and kicks, the obvious strategy for fighting is punching and kicking. (I'm not limiting tcc to that; I'm saying that it has punches and kicks). The difference lies in the tactics. As middleway says, the "hows."

The strategy is to get into a position where one can use the technique. For me, the idea is not to get hurt in the process. I just think there are a lot of martial arts where that strategy is the same; the tactics differ. One major tactic is "offense s the best defense." I think western boxing, muay thai, and wing chun schools have far more developed "strategies" for striking. I.e., hitting specific areas for specific reasons. This seems implicit in tcm, but in ma, people associate it with "dim mak."

There are schools that really stress qinna, like Yang Jwing Ming's system. There's no doubt that it works, and breaking arms and necks is possible. But, he's been criticized for using White Crane, iirc, and therefore not tcc. Then there are guys like WCC Chen, whose successes will be attributed to western boxing, and not tcc. Or, guys like Mario Napoli, who won tournaments in Chen village, but who'll be accused of being a judo guy. That's just in the U.S. The "Practical" tcc guys in Europe do fine too. But, ime, if someone puts on gloves, doesn't wear silks, or does any type of sparring or mat work, what they do will not be considered tcc.

My point is that there are attacking techniques in tcc, but they're not "the" tcc strategy, and the strategy can't be limited to a specific tactic or technique.

[origami_itto]

That’s one of the better Mizner demos I’ve seen - at least the guy is not hopping around like he’s been electrocuted.

What he’s demonstrating of course is Jin using the ground - and as always he’s not actually explaining how to do what he’s doing. They’ll never get it from that explanation.

The free stuff on YouTube is advertising. The stuff you pay for is all detailed specific instruction. Good business model

[marvin8]

Adam in particular will tell you that it's not about off balancing, it's about seizing.

Right. Both Adam and Mark Rasmus neutralize (hua) the opponent's energy (force) and issue (fa) without requiring the opponent to be off balanced—presenting more opportunities to control the opponent. As Adam explains, it is a higher level when neutralize (hua) and issue (fa) are simultaneous.

Excerpt from Ting, Dong, Hua, Na and Fa, http://www.scholarsage.com/ting-dong-hua-na-and-fa/:

Hua or ‘neutralising’ is the ability to take your opponents force and change it into something powerless. In the early stages of training in Tui Shou you will learn how to turn your waist and rotate your body so that the push is directed away from your core. This is the absolute beginning of the process of learning Hua as it is based on large mechanical movements. Going deeper, you are able to neutralise with little or no movement and then deeper still and your neutralisation can take place before the opponents push has even started. Hua should be taking place as soon as you make contact with your opponent. If you ever have the chance to practice Tui Shou with a real master you will find that as soon as you make contact with them you can hardly move at all. Every single movement you try to make is neutralised before it begins to manifest and you are basically rooted to the ground. You cannot move your arms or even move away from the master as they are using Hua to foil everything that you do. Experiencing this is the only way to ever really understand Hua. Hua relies on being able to effectively practice both Ting and Dong first.

Excerpt from "'Balance' Training," https://startingstrength.com/article/balance_training

What is Balance?

Balance can be defined as the ability to maintain one’s center of mass vertically over the base of support, with minimal postural sway. Let’s break this definition down a bit to make sure everything is crystal clear.

The “center of mass” (CoM) is a reference point representing the “averaged” mass of an object or person in space. In other words, if I were to take your body mass distribution in its current position and represent it as a single point, this would be your center of mass. For most humans of average anthropometry standing in anatomical position, this point lies somewhere within the pelvis, typically just in front of the sacrum.



It should be noted that the center of mass is not a static point; it can “move” depending on the shape or position of the body, or by the addition of external load to the system. For example, a pregnant woman’s growing belly causes a significant change in her body’s mass distribution, moving the center of mass slightly forward relative to the non-pregnant state. She therefore must create a slight lordosis by leaning back in order to maintain the proper balance relationship and not tip over. This happens “automatically” without conscious thought, due to a few mechanisms I’ll discuss shortly. Similarly, during a squat or while sprinting, your center of mass moves forward and “outside” your body as your hips move back and the changing orientation of your limbs and torso reconfigure the position of your averaged mass.

The other defining component of the balance relationship is the base of support. When standing upright, this is located at the mid-foot, although it can vary with movement as well. For those of us standing on Earth where gravity always operates vertically downwards, we are by definition “in balance” when the center of mass lies directly vertically over this point. You intuitively know this, and subconsciously default to this position for most of your day-to-day activities because it requires the least amount of effort to maintain with minimal postural sway.

[posidon]

So for instance, First we should know what we want to achieve. I want to offbalance and finish in that moment in some way ... ok ... now how do i do that. The next question and for a New thread.

I totally agree with Chris. This is a question for all internal arts fighting strategy.

[Bao]

- and as always he’s not actually explaining how to do what he’s doing. They’ll never get it from that explanation.

The free stuff on YouTube is advertising. The stuff you pay for is all detailed specific instruction. Good business model

So what you see from seminars is also advertising material ... or what? ...He seems to explain things very much the same in demonstrations and in interviews and what you see taken from actual seminars...

[origami_itto]

I don't want to derail the thread so please let's not dwell on this. I'm not his business manager. I've never been to his seminar. The free stuff on YouTube, to me, appears to be advertising, not teaching. The paid material, (I've got about nine hours worth) is detailed and practical instruction.

[Fa Xing]

A student and I review, discuss, and drill applications and the principles they are meant to teach. Sorry about the sound, the camera usually catches these things better.

"What is the method that makes it possible to entice the opponent to enter, cause him to fall into emptiness, unite with him and then throw him out? For that matter, what separates Tai Ji Quan (or the internal/soft style) techniques from all other types of techniques? The answer lies in one underlying skill; namely, the ability to “stick adhere, continue and follow” [Zhan, nien, lian, sui]. Stick and Adhere refer to connecting with the opponent in a soft and nonconfrontational manner and maintaining this connection as you both move (blocking an opponent’s incoming force inevitably results in the opponent being knocked away. This makes it impossible to join with the opponent and one is doomed to remaining double weighted). Continue and Follow refer to “giving up oneself and following the other” by continuously following the opponent’s movement and changes in order to maintain your connection. In this Situation, you may constantly monitor the opponent’s actions and intent while seeking the time and opportunity to join with and lead his center, thereby bringing him under your control.

One may ask, “what exactly are we sticking to and following?” Do we stick to the opponent’s arms? His torso? The answer is we stick to the opponent’s center of gravity (his pelvic region). In Tai Ji Quan technique this is rarely achieved by direct contact (a useful example to help understand the concept of sticking to and controlling an opponent’s center is the wrestler, who routinely sticks to his opponent’s center directly, as when applying the popular bear hug). Most often, the Tai Ji Quan fighter will seek to stick to and control the opponent’s center through contact with his arms and/or upper torso, using these regions as handles to the opponent’s center. In order to maintain control of the opponent’s center, the point of contact with the opponent will often change in the course of an exchange. The ability to stick, follow and control an opponent’s center in the midst of motion is cultivated in the various push hands drills found in all styles of Tai Ji Quan.

The Techniques of Tai Ji Quan are primarily grappling oriented. Although practitioners are trained to strike with all parts of the body, purely percussive techniques (strikes designed to cause local tissue damage) are far less common than the grappling oriented techniques which include pushing, pulling, twisting, sweeping, locking, throwing and knocking. Techniques such as these are designed to control the opponent’s center and displace him in space." - Tim Cartmell

https://grounddragonma.com/tai-ji-quan/

[marvin8]

Adam in particular will tell you that it's not about off balancing, it's about seizing.

Yes. At 2:36, Adam explains tai chi is not about "off balancing . . . "

It is not me trying to trick your balance. . . . This is external tai chi practice. . . . If we have to trick their balance, this is counterfeit tai chi. Genuine tai chi—the jin will overcome their li, even if they are perfectly balanced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlK4_SxgzzI

Liang de Hua explains tai chi strategy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMN2daUCIk

[yeniseri]

I fell out of tai chi fighting a long time ago since I met Zhang sifu (Dungsheng)/Chang Dungsheng. I still do not know what tai chi fighting is but I am sure the shuai, na, etc that is part of what it should be would be most efficient in one who had good training.
Personally, taijiquan (aka tai chi) has lost its way and the true inheritors only teach the lineage holders All good and well and that is enjoyable to see.
From my limited exposure to Zhang sifu (I was never a permanent or full time student DISCLOSURE) but the part time experiiences (my duration) for a man of his age let me see what real martial arts was.

[middleway]

John Wang who commented earlier in the thread is one of Chang dong shens disciples I believe. Truly an amazing individual by pretty much all accounts.

Adam in particular will tell you that it's not about off balancing, it's about seizing.

Seize, verb
1. Take hold of suddenly and forcibly.
2. Take (an opportunity) eagerly and decisively.

This is part of the process of offbalancing. I have not seen anything from Adam where he isn't offbalancing his opponent.

Note: my definition of off balance and your own may differ.

Interesting ideas presented.
Thanks all.

[marvin8]

What their approach to the problem is. I also think, for someone who is clear with their approach, this should be able to be put into one short sentence. Not for the sake of fun, brevity, or 'being clever', but for the sake of clarify. . . .

When you spar or do applications, the question you can ask of yourself is, 'Did i offbalance before i applied my attack?' . . .

"To offbalance the opponent such that they must recover before being able to mount an offence, and in that moment applying a fight ending attack, either via KO or destruction of joints."

. . . Note: my definition of off balance and your own may differ.

For the "sake of clarity" and that everyone is on the same page, is your definition of "off balance" equal to:

Excerpt from "'Balance' Training," https://startingstrength.com/article/balance_training

What is Balance?

Balance can be defined as the ability to maintain one’s center of mass vertically over the base of support, with minimal postural sway.

If not, can you clearly define your meaning of "off balance?"

If an opponent punches at you with his "center of mass vertically over his base of support," is he balanced or "off balance?"

[Steve James]

Fwiw, those interested in an old approach to this, you may be able to pick up "Tai-chi Chuan: Its Effects and Practical Applications" by YK (Yearning K.) Chen. It was written in 1947 by a student of Tian Zhaolin (not that that makes a difference). The book has lots of illustrations that demonstrate physical principles. Like I said, for those interested; to many it might be considered too external.

As far as what off balance means, I just think it's easier to throw someone when he is off balance --as opposed to 'on-balance, though it's certainly possible. And, even so, the whole point of throwing is to get someone off balance, if that means on the floor. Of course, from the purely physical pov, a person lying flat on the ground is "on balance" but almost impossible to throw.

[origami_itto]

John Wang who commented earlier in the thread is one of Chang dong shens disciples I believe. Truly an amazing individual by pretty much all accounts.

Adam in particular will tell you that it's not about off balancing, it's about seizing.

Seize, verb
1. Take hold of suddenly and forcibly.
2. Take (an opportunity) eagerly and decisively.

This is part of the process of offbalancing. I have not seen anything from Adam where he isn't offbalancing his opponent.

Note: my definition of off balance and your own may differ.

Interesting ideas presented.
Thanks all.

Seizing can also mean freezing, like a seized engine.

But as to the question, I'll keep to a simple definition of off-balance, your center of gravity is offline and you're having to work harder to remain upright.

With that definition in mind, off-balancing is just one of many outcomes of the Hua-Na-Fa process. Adam also likes to occasionally crumple people in videos and I think we're all familiar with the classical launching into the air uprooted push. That's just two examples of outcomes other than "off balancing".

So that's what it isn't, so what it is, right?

Keep in mind I can only speak to my own limited experience and understanding and I in no way represent the views or teachings of Adam Mizner or anybody else. I like his work, not a disciple. Damn sure not a paid spokesperson.

Hua-Na-Fa

Hua is neutralizing or transforming incoming force and energy. That's not where we want to focus.

Na is seizing, but seizing what? In Adam Mizner's terms, li. Others might say tension. I think the two in this context are virtually synonymous. We ting the tension or li and seize it. Seize it how? The mind sees it and leads the chi which leads the jin. I am not aware of any other description that describes it accurately. I don't believe this is chi in precisely the same sense as that which is sunken. If you aren't familiar with it from partner practice, then maybe you've gotten it from quality weapons work.

So the mind finds the li and leads the chi which leads the jin, what jin? First and foremost na jin to seize the li in the body. Adam seems to be extremely skilled at this na jin in many of his videos and will simply hold students immobile, wobbly and unbalanced.

Me, personally, I can only pull that kind of thing off on people with zero martial arts experience, and even then not as flashily as he can. I've got to capitalize on the moment I've got a firm attachment to the li and immediately attack.

Fa is releasing, here contextually it is attacking. I hear people talk about the center, but in my experience the other person's physical center is largely immaterial. The center of the li is more useful. It could be the arm, the back, the leg, whatever, just needs to be enough for your awareness to sense and respond to. If you've got a good grasp the physical center will follow.

As far as what, as I mentioned above, could be a simple unbalancing, could be an uprooting push into the air, could be a crumpling press downward, etc.

The short version is that unbalancing as is not the means of making the techniques effective, it's just one of many outcomes of effectively applying the techniques.