What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:39 pm

GrahamB wrote:From 8.26 onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3wOgtAVGso

"From 8:26 onwards," can you explain where (e.g., timestamp) you see the use of bengquan "long or short stepping and the timing and coordination of the step/feet with the arms/fist" as in the OP clip?

At the beginning of the video, Paul says some of the problems of the bengquan as demonstrated in the OP clip:
1. people move, retract their arm
2. striking by overwhelming, force/force
3. straight forward does not provide an advantage (50/50), "I am following your lead."
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:25 pm

Just watch Jon in the sparring. He’s the other guy. He’s continually striking using correct Xingyi footwork. It’s live practice so it’s not as pretty as a form but there are numerous examples of beng shown.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:24 pm

GrahamB wrote:Just watch Jon in the sparring. He’s the other guy. He’s continually striking using correct Xingyi footwork. It’s live practice so it’s not as pretty as a form but there are numerous examples of beng shown.

Before, I did notice Jon had cleaner form. But, that may be because he was coming forward.

Can you timestamp where you feel Jon is using correct Xingyi bengquan footwork, timing and arms/fist coordination (e.g., pull opponent in or time opponent's momentum), as explained in your different article?
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:47 pm

It's there all over the place. I think you are somehow expecting a sparring match to look like a form? That's a classic mistake. However he does strike the Beng Quan "pose" several times. It's just very fast. It's there and it's gone. All the movements are "threaded into one". In the "form" practice it's more defined.

One notable occasion that springs to mind in the video is the bit where they discuss at the end where Paul got put out of position and staggered back under pressure from Jon. They do a slow motion replay of it as they talk over the top. In the slow motion section there you can clearly see Jon is punching in a classing "beng quan" stance - back weighted, punch to the body and san ti alignment of posture. He doesn't get a clean hit on Paul's body, but the position is what I'd call a classic Beng Quan pose.

Note: Yang Hai does his bengquan "form" by bringing both feet together - we don't do that in our style as the basic bengquan "form" we practice (although we do that too).
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby dspyrido on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:16 pm

Grahamb in your video i get that they are playing and many stylistic influences are coming out but the one thing that stood out for me - where's the grabbing? There's some wc like parry down but nothing controlling.

This is a question for everyone - does your 5 elements include chinna that is drilled even when doing the form?
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:25 pm

marvin8 wrote:The stepping might be long or short, importance is the timing and coordination of the step/feet with the arms/fist. There is a visualization of incoming force and one must time and react on that force with ones forward force…Its very much an exercise on the sense of timing which is to take further in sparring……………Its easy to get stuck up with power generation issues and theories of tactical footwork stuff, which of course is there too………YiQuan was mentioned, there is the very same visualization in its practice.

Can you post a video of "a man on man fight" (against another style) using "long or short stepping and the timing and coordination of the step/feet with the arms/fist" as in the OP clip that is "different to a straight punch?"[/quote]
Hmm, this is difficult……I say it’s an exercise of getting the feel for timing an opponent. The stepping is there to enhance the forward momentum feeling in the exercise. It’s not any sort of tactical stepping method of how to reach the opponent from an certain distance……………And no, my Google fu(and GongFu) is not up to the level of finding or producing a good vid of showing proper timing at use in fighting
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:56 pm

dspyrido wrote:
This is a question for everyone - does your 5 elements include chinna that is drilled even when doing the form?

Of course there is, for me personally I’m not interested in that part. As little grabbing as possible I like
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby edededed on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:08 pm

Not me! My xingyi is pretty much hitting. :D

Piquan is very similar to aikido's ikkyo, I can see using hengquan as a kind of elbow lock, but I'm having trouble imaging the other 3...
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:21 pm

dspyrido wrote:Grahamb in your video i get that they are playing and many stylistic influences are coming out but the one thing that stood out for me - where's the grabbing? There's some wc like parry down but nothing controlling.


The simple, dumbed down, answer to that would be, "why would you want to grab somebody's arm?" This isn't Aikido. THIS IS XINGYI :)

Essentially XY is a striking art. If you're resorting to grabbing it's because your striking isn't good enough. End of storey 8-)

But seriously, the proper answer would be, of course, we have china na (although we use a different word for it) techniques in our XY. The video is showing a limited rule set exchange. It's supposed to be "5 Element fighting", which in our system is a specific type of sparring. For instance, kicking isn't allowed (they talk about this towards the end when one of them accidentally throws a kick - "kick!"). It's also meant to stay in contact range - when they break too much one of them shouts "stand off!" because the range is being broken too much and they are entering Stand Off training, which is another type of training we do. They do break apart quite a bit though because they are getting progressively freer with the techniques and edging towards 12 animal fighting. Which is the way it should naturally progress. This should evolve naturally in XY. We start locked down and limited in what we are allowed to do and become more free naturally by following the process. The first time you are doing 12 animals sparring should be because it just evolves naturally out of your 5 elements sparring.

So, it's not just grabbing that's missing. The rest of "XingYi" is missing! i.e. Kicking is missing. Grappling is missing. Animal methods are missing (although they are using animal methods in the 5 elements there. Jon is Mr Horse - everything he does looks like Horse), weapons are missing, etc...

(Also, to be fair this is a really bad example if you wanted to understand what 5 Elements fighting is - they're really breaking the rules - going free with it - breaking distance and using animals and just having fun, probably because they're being filmed, but it is what it is).

This is a question for everyone - does your 5 elements include chinna that is drilled even when doing the form?


It doesn't matter what you do in a "form" - as Bruce Lee didn't say, "Air doesn't fight back" ;)
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:49 pm

GrahamB wrote:
Trick wrote:if you consider a man on man fight you can skip the XYQ bufa practice??


That's an interesting question.

Obviously, if you drop the XingYi way of doing something you're not really doing XY anymore...
GrahamB wrote:It's there all over the place. I think you are somehow expecting a sparring match to look like a form? That's a classic mistake. However he does strike the Beng Quan "pose" several times. It's just very fast. It's there and it's gone. All the movements are "threaded into one". In the "form" practice it's more defined.

No, I am not. However in reply to Trick you said, "drop the XingYi way of doing something you're not really doing XY anymore."

I was "looking" for the elements you wrote about in your article that make a good bengquan:
GrahamB wrote:What I would consider a good example of Bengquan outside of movies is this XingYi performance by Yang Hai, originally from China, but now living and teaching in Canada: . . .

The arms are working together in harmony, the spine is rotating and the hips are also moving around it. . . .

You don’t land your feet, then punch, or punch without stepping. The step is an integral part of the movement. It’s part of the opening and closing of the body and part of the technique. In Xingyi your feet should always be moving. . . .

I believe that part of the purpose of this footwork is to aid a key feature that makes a Bengquan different to a regular straight punch – that is its ability to penetrate deeply into the target. . . .

One arm is retracting in Bengquan as the other punches – that action utilises the whole body in a very relaxed way because it makes the spine rotate.


GrahamB wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Grahamb in your video i get that they are playing and many stylistic influences are coming out but the one thing that stood out for me - where's the grabbing? There's some wc like parry down but nothing controlling.


The simple, dumbed down, answer to that would be, "why would you want to grab somebody's arm?" This isn't Aikido. THIS IS XINGYI :)

Essentially XY is a striking art. If you're resorting to grabbing it's because your striking isn't good enough. End of storey 8-)

One wants to control, unbalance or grab (gain an advantage) before punching to prevent a counter.

GrahamB wrote:But seriously, the proper answer would be, of course, we have china na (although we use a different word for it) techniques in our XY. The video is showing a limited rule set exchange. It's supposed to be "5 Element fighting", which in our system is a specific type of sparring. For instance, kicking isn't allowed (they talk about this towards the end when one of them accidentally throws a kick - "kick!"). It's also meant to stay in contact range - when they break too much one of them shouts "stand off!" because the range is being broken too much and they are entering Stand Off training, which is another type of training we do.

They do break apart quite a bit though because they are getting progressively freer with the techniques and edging towards 12 animal fighting. Which is the way it should naturally progress. This should evolve naturally in XY. We start locked down and limited in what we are allowed to do and become more free naturally by following the process. The first time you are doing 12 animals sparring should be because it just evolves naturally out of your 5 elements sparring.


Since it was "a limited rule set exchange," my question is still unanswered: :)
GrahamB wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of "a man on man fight" (against another style) using "long or short stepping and the timing and coordination of the step/feet with the arms/fist" as in the OP clip that is "different to a straight punch?"

From 8.26 onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3wOgtAVGso
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:50 pm

So much goes missing when there is little understanding of the whole art.

https://youtu.be/U5M_wAlq6b8


Hand and foot never out of step no matter demo or sparring.
The point . is absolute
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:23 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:So much goes missing when there is little understanding of the whole art.

https://youtu.be/U5M_wAlq6b8


Hand and foot never out of step no matter demo or sparring.



This is said and used by most striking arts for the same reasons. Nice clip BTW.

Totally agree what's practice, by whatever means should be reflected in usage. When it's not it may be more due to the practitioner then the method used.

The thread seems to reflect two issues.

What is different
is it more or less effective.

The problem is that there are no clips showing definitively it's usage to understand or make the comparison.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:50 pm

The point is , one can never understand beng without truly understanding Xing I body method. It is never the fist, it is always the next step.

https://youtu.be/39xfQ-KgsxU

Not knowing that step is not having body connection.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:59 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:The point is , one can never understand beng without truly understanding Xing I body method. It is never the fist, it is always the next step.

https://youtu.be/39xfQ-KgsxU

Not knowing that step is not having body connection.


As I understand it there are different schools and teachers of this art. There are members on the site who can be found to be authoritave practitioners of the art but do not comment.

Is there any one commenting on it now who can say they are an authoritative practitioners of the art.

I would think the main point would be usage and effectiveness. For this one does not need to understand the tenets of the art. Only to view it useage.

The thread has been informative from a historical and theoretical perspective.

So far no clips demonstrating usage showing the advantages and effectiveness.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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