Definition of yielding

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Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:30 pm

Do you agree with the following definition?

If your opponent drags you toward the west direction and you move into the

- west direction, that's yielding.
- east direction, that's resisting.
- north, south, north west, south west, ... direction, that's not yielding. That's resisting and "切 (Qie) cutting - cut into a new direction".
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:22 pm

Your conception is too big. It can get that big, but usually is simply being pliable and alive.
Basically anything other than resisting and being rigid. But that can happen in just a single part of the body, not necessarily as big as moving your whole body in a particular direction.

I don't like the term yielding primarily because it gives you too much of an idea of being passive and letting yourself be pushed. It's more like what the video game folks call kiting. You pull back enough to stay out of reach but close enough to keep the attacker convinced they've almost got you.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:26 pm

Say like with an arm pull.

If I resist I get pulled, if I go where they want me to go I'll be pulled, so the answer is in the middle. I let them think they're pulling me but I have enough play between our bodies to change the vector slightly and put the elbow or shoulder into them.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:30 pm

Yielding is the opposite of resisting.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:25 pm

johnwang wrote:Do you agree with the following definition?

If your opponent drags you toward the west direction and you move into the

- west direction, that's yielding.
- east direction, that's resisting.
- north, south, north west, south west, ... direction, that's not yielding. That's resisting and "切 (Qie) cutting - cut into a new direction".

Regardless if one cuts or not, "yielding or resisting" depends on the direction of the opponent's momentum and one's reaction. If an opponent pulls and you push, then you are yielding. If an opponent pushes and you push, then you are resisting.

Using your video, the opponent is in a staggered stance pulling him. He underhooks the opponent's arm with shoulders perpendicular to the weak angle. Then, he throws the opponent backwards by stepping and yielding (pushing) into the weak angle.

If the opponent was pulling and he pulled to throw the opponent forwards, he would be resisting.

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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby cloudz on Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:45 am

Just keep it simple like move with, or away from; "getting out the way". both from contact and non. In the end both forms of evasion. kind of, of a kind.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby LaoDan on Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:04 am

Yielding is like a cat being petted, the cat regulates the pressure. Not yielding is like when petting a dog, the person determines the pressure. The cat controls through yielding, the dog does not.
Last edited by LaoDan on Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:28 am

johnwang wrote:- north, south, north west, south west, ... direction, that's not yielding. That's resisting and "切 (Qie) cutting - cut into a new direction".

I believe you're discussing your comments from the "Adhering" thread. Others, may want to comment on them. (I made a gif for easier viewing, which can be removed.)

johnwang wrote:When you

- pull, you can handle both resisting and yielding.
- push, you can handle resisting, but you can't handle yielding:

Image

. . . When I pull you toward the west direction and my body is moving toward the north direction, if you want to shoulder strike me toward the north direction, you have to resist my west direction pulling first before you can apply the north direction force. IMO, that's against the definition of yielding.

This is why the shaking force is 100% against the yielding force. When your opponent shakes you, it's very difficult to cut your force into a new direction.

. . . Agree that we have to define this term so we can all agree with.

I have difficulty to explain to marvin8 that if I use shaking force on him toward the "west" direction, it's difficult for him to apply the "north" direction force on me. Even if he can do that, that's not yielding. That's resisting and cutting instead

marvin8 wrote:When you low kick, parry and reach for the opponent, one can counter with a straight right/left, kick, check your kick, etc.

"When you pull," your opponent can yield and redrag, elbow, chop, strike, etc.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:45 am

marvin8 wrote:I believe you're discussing your comments from ...

Do you agree or disagree that if your opponent drags you toward the W direction,

if you try to yield toward the

- W direction, it's very easy.
- NW direction, it may be possible.
- N direction, it will be difficult (that's why I call this cutting).
- NE direction, it's partial resisting.
- E direction, it's full resisting.

Here is my concern. If your opponent drags you toward the W direction. At the same time his body is moving toward the N direction. Your yielding just won't work at that moment.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby Bao on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:50 am

Yielding is like a cat being petted, the cat regulates the pressure.


The cat can yield pretty good, but you can also trap it by following and fill in the cat's yielding.

This is why yielding is a mistake. Had a few very good discussions about "yielding" lately and about the Chinese terminology, which made a few things clear, concepts and translation mistakes that I hadn't consider before. The skill is actually "hua", guiding and transforming. But "rang", or letting the opponent use his force free, is considered a mistake. If you consider to "yield", you must understand that yielding is like doing yin without yang. At its best, it's only a half part half of something that needs another half to work as a functional skill.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:57 am

Bao wrote:
Yielding is like a cat being petted, the cat regulates the pressure.


The cat can yield pretty good, but you can also trap it by following and fill in the cat's yielding.

This is why yielding is a mistake. Had a few very good discussions about "yielding" lately and about the Chinese terminology, which made a few things clear, concepts and translation mistakes that I hadn't consider before. The skill is actually "hua", guiding and transforming. But "rang", or letting the opponent use his force free, is considered a mistake. If you consider to "yield", you must understand that yielding is like doing yin without yang. At its best, it's only a half part half of something that needs another half to work as a functional skill.

I was just about to post that. Not resisting, "hua" transforming—transform, stick, follow, etc.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby LaoDan on Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:00 am

I would say that the WAY that one yields is important, but I think that we probably agree because of the reference to “hua” and “rang” and yin and yang. The dog just lets the person do what they want and would be yielding control (even though the dog is not resisting either). The cat can mistakenly collapse while yielding and get caught by “filling in”, but it is a different kind of yielding than the dog’s. From my perspective we do want “yielding” but without collapsing [i.e., yielding while maintaining pengjin]. We want yin+yang yielding, not yin+yin yielding.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby LaoDan on Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:27 am

The snow laden pine limb receives the snow without resisting or collapsing, yet moves in response to the burden. A mountain stands unmoved by a human’s puny attempts to push or pull it, but also does not resist or collapse. Of course there are exceptions, but one can understand the quality. Neither pine trees nor mountains have minds and therefore cannot have the fight-or-flight responses that humans are prone to. Humans need to respond in a more neutral way than fight-or-flight, resist or collapse (yang+yang or yin+yin). Yielding should be within the in-between place between fight and flight (yielding should be yang+yin or yin+yang).
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby Steve James on Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:24 pm

Yielding to an opponent pushing your shoulders on the front can be done several ways, but all it means is that you don't resist the push. If the opponent is moving 50 mph to the West, I'd say it's better to give him a little shove to the West, not the East. Once he's going a little more than he intended to the Wet, it's easy to change his direction, and even spin him in the opposite direction.
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Re: Definition of yielding

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:42 pm

Steve James wrote:Yielding to an opponent pushing your shoulders on the front can be done several ways,

Do you agree that yielding to the push is easy. Yielding to the pull (especial the quick downward shaking) is difficult?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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