Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby johnwang on Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:35 pm

Do you agree with the following Q&A?

Q: How can you wrap my punching arm if I always pull my punch back fast?
A: When you move in toward me, I'll move in toward you at the same time. If my shoulder can hit on your chest, it doesn't matter how fast that you may pull your punching arm back, my arm can still wrap over (or under) your shoulder.

When 2 deer jump in at the same time, their horns can be tangled with less effort.

Last edited by johnwang on Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:45 am

Whatever floats yer boat.

Depends on how you move in, if it's just clashing together then you could probably do better.
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby marvin8 on Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:27 pm

johnwang wrote:Do you agree with the following Q&A?

Q: How can you wrap my punching arm if I always pull my punch back fast?
A: When you move in toward me, I'll move in toward you at the same time. If my shoulder can hit on your chest, it doesn't matter how fast that you may pull your punching arm back, my arm can still wrap over (or under) your shoulder.

When 2 deer jump in at the same time, their horns can be tangled with less effort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV8Ll8oaVkw

One usually stops, before throwing a punch. When I stop, jab from striking distance and retract my punch, "you'll move in (hop) toward me." Before "your shoulder can hit on my chest," I may move to the side like a matador and/or punch again (like your student below) hitting you in the head.

Instead of the 2 deer, can you elaborate on "I'll move in toward you . . . shoulder can hit on your chest . . . it doesn't matter how fast . . . my arm can still wrap over (or under) your shoulder" using the clips below.

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Rather than your student not retracting his jab like below, say your student throws punches like he does above—retracting his jab. When your other student separates his arms, your student would punch your other student's head with a straight left and right uppercut:

Image

Better yet, it would be easier to understand your moving in and arm wrapping if you post the above video but with a retracted punch as you promised over a year ago.

A few more normal, "committed" punches that you can elaborate on how "you will move in toward and your shoulder can hit on their chest. It doesn't matter how fast they are pulling their punching arm back. You can still wrap over (or under) their shoulder." Notice that all the fighters below are trained to move after punching to avoid counters:

Image

Image

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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby Steve James on Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:01 pm

Tcc theory argues that one never retreats straight back. That's also consistent with boxing theory. Rather one moves/steps to the side. The idea is not to get far away from the opponent, but closer. The only caveat is that it should be close, but in a superior position. Some of the boxing examples above illustrate applications of the "theory."

Ideally, if someone hits you while you advancing, the force is increased. Some martial arts will utilize the "straight blast." Bruce Lee's jkd uses that tactic. It wouldn't accord with tcc "theory", but in a fight either it will work or not. Getting out of the way and striking or grappling "can" always work. I.e., it's almost always possible to get out of the way of a charging bull; staying close enough to kill is the art.
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby Subitai on Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:33 pm

I suppose of version of this is just "Intercept" (Jeet). Oh Bruce Lee... what a novel idea you had! :)
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby marvin8 on Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:58 pm

johnwang wrote:Do you agree with the following Q&A?

Q: How can you wrap my punching arm if I always pull my punch back fast?
A: When you move in toward me, I'll move in toward you at the same time. If my shoulder can hit on your chest, it doesn't matter how fast that you may pull your punching arm back, my arm can still wrap over (or under) your shoulder.

When 2 deer jump in at the same time, their horns can be tangled with less effort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV8Ll8oaVkw

Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut (entry):
Image

Do you agree with the following As?

Using physics, let's analyze your above statements by looking at your "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" clip and these Nunes vs Cyborg clips. Let's change the Q: to make it simpler leaving out "pull my punch back"/retracting. Assume that a first punch has caused you to separate your arms and you are attempting to hop in, while an opponent throws a second punch ("clash"). Your statements do not match what actually happens. Also, there is a difference between striking range, clinch range and weapons used (e.g., punch versus headlock/arm wrap.).

johnwang: "When you move in toward me, I'll move in toward you at the same time. . . . my shoulder can hit on your chest . . . my arm can still wrap over (or under) your shoulder."

False. One does not need to "move in" for their fist to reach/hit your head from striking range. However, your arm cannot headlock/arm wrap unless you "move in" (hop) to clinch range.

johnwang: When 2 deer jump in at the same time, their horns can be tangled with less effort.

Deer horns are equal in reach and tangle (force against force) at clinch range. This is different from comparing one's punch vs your headlock/arm wrap. One can reach you with their punch. However, you cannot reach them with your headlock/arm wrap until you enter the clinch range. In the punching range, the striker has an advantage over the clincher (you). This is clearly shown in the Cyborg vs Nunes fight. When Nunes punch lands (striking range), Cyborg cannot reach Nunes to execute a headlock/arm wrap.

ImageImageImage
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Your "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video discounts the effort needed to execute the throw because of the feeder's actions. The feeder starts his punch from punching range (without stepping in) and does not retract his punches leaving both arms out, squaring his shoulders. This gives the thrower less distance to hop and more time to execute the throw. This is evident when comparing it to the other 4 video clips ("rhino 2" and fights).
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:03 am

johonwang wrote:Do you agree with the following Q&A?

Can you reply to some of the issues I brought up in answering your OP question in order to better understand your arm wrap/head lock strategy?

marvin8 wrote:rhino 2

Rather than your student not retracting his jab like below, say your student throws punches like he does above—retracting his jab. When your other student separates his arms, your student would punch your other student's head with a straight left and right uppercut:

Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut (entry):
Image

Below is a similar sequence in Rousey (R) vs Nunes (N), an actual fight. R attempts to block (from inside out) N’s overhand right but fails. Then, R separates and extends her arms attempting to grab N's neck. N lands an overhead right over R's guard. Then, N lands a left jab inside (between R's arms) while yielding (stepping back), creating distance. N measures R with her left hand and lands a straight right to R's head. (N's movements are normal and can be seen in the "rhino 2" and the other fight videos.)

Summary: R attempts to block (from inside out) N's overhand right, extends her arms and tries to move into clinch range to obtain a head lock. R's attempt fails. R's shoulder cannot hit N's chest because of the distance (striking range), partly due to R's shoulders are square while N's rotate. Also, N prevents R from moving into clinch range by maintaining distance, knocking her back with a left jab and straight right and eventually TKOs her.

R fails to block (from inside out) N's overhand right:
Image

R extends both her arms and attempts to move in for a head lock:
Image

R is hit by an overhand right, jab and straight right while attempting to close the distance and obtain a headlock:
Image
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:44 pm

marvin8 wrote:Can you reply to some of the issues I brought up in answering your OP question in order to better understand your arm wrap/head lock strategy?

Here is the clip that I have promised.

I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:29 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you reply to some of the issues I brought up in answering your OP question in order to better understand your arm wrap/head lock strategy?

Here is the clip that I have promised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JURYA8 ... e=youtu.be

Thanks for keeping your promise.

Some video observations:

1. At 0:00 - 1:36, Your student used footwork, resulting in no throws from other student.
2. At 2:11, Your student swept rhino guard aside exposing other student’s head, entered the side door, got behind and could have rear naked choked or struck (e.g., overhand right, etc.):
Image

3. There was no block and leading arm wrapping as demonstrated in “Rhino guard – Head lock – Diagonal Cut."

Conclusion: Rhino guard is not functional as described and demonstrated in “Rhino guard – Head lock – Diagonal Cut." The joining of the hands handicaps more than helps compared to the muay thai long guard I mentioned in your "Anti-striking" thread:
marvin8 wrote:The long guard to clinch without "arm wrap" is typical and there is plenty of data:

johnwang wrote:The arm wrap is to control your opponent's leading arm. I don't like MT clinch. It still gives opponent 2 free arms. In Chinese wrestling, the leading arm wrapping is very important.

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:So with this rhino gaurd, what's to stop the opponent from bridging it? Couldn't they simply move it out of the way with one hand and attack you with the other? Something similar to a fair Lady works at shuttles or something

If you and your opponent are on the same level, his 2 enforced arms will be stronger than your single arm. When you use one hand to push his rhino guard, that's the time his rhino guard will be separated and become 2 independent arms. The grappling game will start.

Try to hold a rhino guard (with Taiji Peng Jin) and ask your opponent to

- push on it. Can his push destroy your rhino guard?
- push on it with one hand and then punch you with another hand. Can his punch land on your head?

I would love to hear your personal experience from this 2 simple tests. What's your succeed/failure ratio on these 2 tests?
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby johnwang on Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:11 pm

My blue belt students may not be good in rhino guard yet. This is very common. I had a 6 years students who could not make his hip throw to work on the mat even once.

If they can use their move in the ring or on the mat, the technique is theirs. Otherwise, they still have a long way to go.
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby Daniel-san on Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:43 pm

"............................... Another mistranslation from the Chinese is this. "If he moves up, I move up, if he moves down, I move down" fine up to here, but now it all goes strangely wrong. It continues, " if he comes forward, I move back! and if he moves back, I move forward"! In this case the translation has given us the exact opposite to what it should be. It should read. "if he moves forward, I move forward and if he moves back, then I move back". This is more martial arts and is not dancing. So, in the normal basic push hands we have to do something that is completely wrong for a fighting art. When my opponent moves forward, I move back and when I move forward, he moves back etc. This is wrong. ............................"

http://www.taijiworld.com/push-hands.html

Tai Chi Self Defense 1/. Never step backwards.

When you are attacked, do not do what most hard style martial arts teach you to do, to step backwards as you block! In the art of fighting This will invite certain defeat. Any fighters or brawlers all work on 'switches'. We are born with switches that tell us to do certain things sub-consciously, like a male puppy that, at a certain age begins to lift his leg, why? He may not have seen any other dogs doing this but he does it anyway as if some programmer has programmed a computer program into his brain. This is not far from the truth. We are all born with switches, those that tell us to cry, to begin crawling etc. Then there are those switches that we learn from experience. It is the same with the Qi that we are born with (pre-natal Qi) and that which we gain as we grow, (post-natal Qi).

A fighter learns certain switches as he becomes more and more experienced at fighting and aggression. However, it is also these learned switches that can bring him unstuck in a fighting situation against someone who knows about switches and the art of fighting. The fighter learns these switches but also learns sub-consciously that his switches will also cause other switches in those who he is attacking, which will in turn switch on more switches in himself. This is the way that a fighter works. He may not know this and indeed it would be rare that any street fighter would know about such things. So, when the expected switch does not happen when he attacks someone, it throws his own switches out of wack, thus putting his timing and co-ordination off. This is where internal gung-fu and the art of fighting gains the upper hand. We know that the fighter expects us to react in a certain learned manner when attacked or when faced with aggression. He expects us to move away from him trying to lessen his attack. So he is ready for this and knows exactly what to do when we do this expected movement. But if we do not, then he is taken by surprise and before he has time to change his method, we have already finished it.

Someone who is attacking you expects you to be where you are when he attacks otherwise he would not have attacked you where you were. Someone throws a punch for instance, they do not throw the punch to where they think you might be, but to where you are at the time of the attack. Remember though, the attacker is expecting you to either be there or to move backwards. So even if you do move back, he is ready for this and will launch another attack to compensate for this movement. So, if you are not where he expects you to be, and more importantly, if you are in his face attacking him, then he is just not ready for this. He has to re-group and think about what he has to do next, giving you time to attack with devastating attacks from the internal Gung-fu system.

Often when we train in tai chi self defense techniques or training methods, we will be taught to stand still and not move. However, this is only in the beginning to get the movement correct. Once you have it, then you begin training in a more realistic manner by moving into the attacker as he attacks.

There is another important reason in self-defence for not taking a step backward apart from the obvious physical advantages as I have indicated above. And it is an 'internal' reason. The 'primordial' instinct for survival is inside all animals including human beings. Although ours has been slowly lost over the years of depending upon others for our defence! It's still in there, but we just have to get at it in some way. Dogs for instance have all kinds of primordial instincts like, at a certain age when a male dog begins to lift its leg to pee. Why does it do this. Well, we know why I guess, some chemical changes happen inside causing the dog to have a need to mark its territory. But how it happens is a complete source of mystery and wonderment to me. Never having seen another male dog, the puppy will always begin to lift his leg at a certain age. He will also at this age, begin to attack, i.e., move forward into his 'opponent'. In order to understand this, we must also know a little about the 'triune brain', or the 'reptile brain'.

The theory goes, that when God, (or whoever) was making we animals, he began with his first creation, the 'reptile brain' which is that brain that all reptiles have. It is a survival brain, totally relying upon instinct and programming, no thought, only reflex reactions caused by its particular 'computer' programming. A snake does not 'think', it does not love, hate or feel resentment etc., it just lives and survives. This is the kind of brain that the snake has. We too have this brain! However, it is only 5% of our total brain size.

Then 'God' tried out a new brain for the more complex animals such as mammals and we call this brain the 'old mammalian' brain. This is that brain that dogs have for instance. A little more thinking for itself and some small amount of emotion even, but still much programming and relying upon instinct and reflexive actions to stimuli. The dog however is able to revert back to its 'reptile brain' any time there is an emergency of survival. And it makes certain body changes to enhance this effect to give it the greatest chance at surviving. Like arching its back as all animals do including sharks just before they attack. We in internal gung-fu also make use of this when we are attacked. The animal also makes use of another area of helping it to reflexively go into the reptile brain. That of always rushing forward. You will only notice this phenomenon in those animals that are closer to the source of 'wild' than many domesticated animals who have also (as we humans) had this sense bred out! Like the Australian Blue Heeler dog that is part Dingo. He is one of the most courageous small dogs on earth. Not because he is courageous however, but because he is closer to the source than most dogs. There is in fact an old saying with regard to this breed of dog here in Australia; "the Blue Cattle Dog (the breed has several names and also comes in the red variety), will eat anything it meets unless it is eaten first".

The last and most sophisticated brain is of course the mammalian (human) brain. However, this brain did not replace the old mammalian or the reptile brain, it simply was placed over the other two. So we as humans still have the 'survival brain' and are able to access this animal brain through training. This training is part of the internal Gung-fu training.

One way that we have to access this reflexive survival brain is to simply move forward as we are attacked. It triggers a switch that causes us to attack and attack again! Just as an animal never stops its attack, so too should we do the same. In my classes when I am teaching the training methods, I have to begin by teaching them incorrectly! This is because if I were to teach the correct way, i.e., moving in as we are attacked in training, we would have many more injuries! Moving in seems to build up an attack energy that is often uncontrollable in the beginner. Even the blocking type movements have far greater impact when the reptile brain kicks in. In addition, it is only those who are trained as advanced instructors that I allow to train in this manner.

http://www.taijiworld.com/tai-chi-self-defense.html

http://www.taijiworld.com/art-of-fighting.html
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby johnwang on Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:26 pm

Daniel-san wrote:if he comes forward, I move back!

You are talking about is the throwing art. I'm talking about the striking art. In striking art, if you move back, you will lose that "head on collusion" effect.







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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby marvin8 on Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:31 pm

johnwang wrote:
Daniel-san wrote:if he comes forward, I move back!

You are talking about is the throwing art. I'm talking about the striking art. In striking art, if you move back, you will lose that "head on collusion" effect.

No you won't, if you stick and follow. If your opponent moves in and you move in too, you may smother your strikes and or the opponent may counter/"take advantage of you."

If your opponent moves in and you stay in place or move back, you can still have that "head on collision" effect:

Image

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Excerpt from T'ai Chi Qi & Jin:
Chen Kung (aka Yearning K. Chen) wrote:In the treatise Secret of the Eight Postures it says, “What is the meaning of Rolling-Back Energy? Entice the opponent to advance forward, follow his incoming energy, do not discard it nor resist it. When his strength is completely exhausted, he will naturally be empty. At this point you can let go or counter him. Maintain your own center and no one can take advantage of you.


Excerpts from Marvin Smalheiser Legacy with Tai Chi:
Johnny Kwong Ming Lee in April 1993 wrote:"People often don't understand the Tai Chi principle that you have to disperse first the coming force. Then you help him to go where he wants to go. That's what the Wu style does. That's a form of discharging energy. When he comes forward, I can feel his energy coming forward. I'm not going to push him backward. I just say, okay. If he comes in, I sink to the ground and change his angles, mostly to the side. In Wu style, it is common to discharge to the side, mostly to the side. . . ."

"So when he moves, you can move ahead of him. If you don't have the security to have your opponent come in and you cannot get close to his center, then it is no use."

"You have to let him come in, just enough to listen and stay on him." But he cautioned against rolling back too much. "Too many people roll back too far."
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby johnwang on Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:49 pm

This is a good example that your opponent moves in, you move back. This is used in the throwing art.

Image

This is another example that your opponent moves in, you move in at the same time. This is used in the striking art.

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Re: Your opponent moves in, you move in too.

Postby marvin8 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:32 pm

johnwang wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36aoCs9myLc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV47fCgVGPM

This is another example that your opponent moves in, you move in at the same time. This is used in the striking art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCAdss1L_0c

The static feeders in the above videos (Adam Hsu and Brendan Lai) are another example of "The Worst Habit in Martial Arts." As shown at 0:00 - 1:36 in your "rhino guard pressure test" video, a non-static opponent can move, change angles and counter.

In this "GongFu journey : Baji Quan fight 2," there is no grabbing of static, unretracted punches:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWw3Gj_Iqw

Beijing Baji Quan club application:

Image
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