Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

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Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby AL2016 on Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:13 am

Hi

Sometimes bagua circle and use of trigramme remind me magical circle to call a devil and using it

Here the astaroth (devil) sceau

https://www.google.com/search?q=sceau+d ... ovl1sFYphM

What do you think?

Thanks
Last edited by AL2016 on Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:47 am

In Chinese tradition, the five elements represents change which gives rise to the eight directions or trigrams. The circle represents creation, the creative cycle. Destruction, or the destructive cycle is represented by the pentagram, so it's basically the same thing. ;)


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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby robert on Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:09 pm

AL2016 wrote:Sometimes bagua circle and use of trigramme remind me magical circle to call a devil and using it

What do you think?

Bagua (八卦) - ba is 8 and gua is trigram so I don't see the connection.

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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:59 pm

robert wrote:
AL2016 wrote:Sometimes bagua circle and use of trigramme remind me magical circle to call a devil and using it

What do you think?

Bagua (八卦) - ba is 8 and gua is trigram so I don't see the connection.

Image

Agreed. They are two entirely different traditions from two separate cultures, and are totally unrelated, imo, despite any similarities in the graphic design of their logos. ::)
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:25 pm

Yes, the traditions are totally unrelated. But it's interesting that the pentagram means the same thing in both of the tradition = destruction. Remember now that the Sigil of Baphomet, which is a goat's head inside an inverted pentagram did not become the symbol of Satanism until the founding of the Church of Satan in 1966. It's a new symbol. But the Chinese pentagram, the cycle of destruction is much older. Who knows if the symbol was partially influenced by Chinese symbol? -shrug-

The Chinese five elements cycles is a common picture, so AL2016 might have seen a diagram somewhere so that he relates to this though forget where he saw it.


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Last edited by Bao on Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby Peacedog on Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:59 pm

I've never seen the trigrams used for evocation.

I have seen some evocation centric practices using circle walking.

Could you use the trigrams for this? Probably. The trigrams could be used to generate an equilibrium of forces much like the four directions and elements are in more conventional evocatory practices. Then use the hexagram to contain whatever you are working with.

Circles are generally used for "higher level" entities and squares for more "earthly" applications.

A hexagram is kind of half and half.

So, yes, I could see someone doing this.
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:40 pm

Bao wrote:Yes, the traditions are totally unrelated. But it's interesting that the pentagram means the same thing in both of the tradition = destruction.

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I consider the comment above to be erroneous. The classical Five Elements Phases are traditionally viewed as having both a generative and creative cycle, represented by a pentagon, and a transformative control cycle, represented by a pentagram, as depicted in most graphic diagrams.

From an energetic perspective, therefore, element phase energy is never destroyed or annihilated, but is rather only controlled and transformed in order to return the generative or creative cycle manifestations to a normal balance of fluctuating energy flow according to the 12 Terrestrial Branches Timetable.

The 8 Trigrams and 64 Hexagrams, however, are definitely employed in traditional Taoist Magic and Internal Alchemy practices as visual talismans to assist in attracting and harnessing the energetic images and qualities which they are believed to represent. 8-)
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby AL2016 on Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:44 am

Ok thanks
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby Bao on Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:24 pm

Doc Stier wrote:I consider the comment above to be erroneous. The classical Five Elements Phases are traditionally viewed as having both a generative and creative cycle, represented by a pentagon, and a transformative control cycle, represented by a pentagram, as depicted in most graphic diagrams.


Well, I’ll just have to disagree then.

In the most texts, regardless they are about TCM, IMA or older Chinese practice, the pentagram is mostly referred to as “destructive” or degeneration. Water puts out fire etc. The degeneration is natural, not unnatural and it's certainly not about "evil" as the Satanist symbol. But still, evil and the devil in christianity is about destruction and chaos.

From an energetic perspective, therefore, element phase energy is never destroyed or annihilated, but is rather only controlled and transformed in order to return the generative or creative cycle manifestations to a normal balance of fluctuating energy flow according to the 12 Terrestrial Branches Timetable.


Well sir, you can look at it as a whole symbol or you can isolate different elements or parts and interpret them separately. Just as any kind of Chinese symbol, the Wu Xing is complex and varies in meaning. However, what I believe you are talking about is an ideal, what wewant to achieve through Taoist practice and internal alchemy. Cycling and turning degeneration into a continuous cycle and return to the creative cycle is what Taoist practice is all about. We live and die because of that or normal the normal cycle is degenerative.

The Five elements represents both the generation and destruction. It has done so long before Neidan was invented. it does not only represent the Taoist ideal .

The Wu Xing is from much older philosophical thought. It has probably had something to do with agriculture, just as the 12 heavenly branches and the ten earthly branches which were used to count the old calender and divide time into periods of 60 years. The 12 heavenly branches, represented by the 12 animals. And the ten earthly branches were represented by the five elements. If you look at the seasons, they go from winter to summer and then to winter again. The cycle of generation and degeneration is inherited in the seasons. And the seasons were in fact represented by the wu xing.

The 8 Trigrams and 64 Hexagrams, however, are definitely employed in traditional Taoist Magic and Internal Alchemy practices as visual talismans to assist in attracting and harnessing the energetic images and qualities which they are believed to represent. 8-)


Tai Yi —> Yin/Yang —> Si Xiang —> Five elements —> Bagua —> 64 Hexagram.

Again, the Five Elements and its basic idea of is inherited in the 8 diagrams and the 64 diagrams.

The two cycles of generation and destruction are connected to “Pre” and “post” mortal, or pre and post heavenly principle. Remember that the Bagua has two constellations or arrangements, one pre-heavenly, one post heavenly. One represents creation, one degeneration.

After Heaven, or the degeneration/destruction is represented by the hexagram 63, After Completion. The picture of the hexagram consists of Fire over Water. It means separation. Water flows down and away. Fire goes up and disappears.

Before Heaven, primordial, creation is represented by hexagram 64 "Before Completion", here the hexagram is represented by a picture where Fire is below Water. This creates steam or "Qi" = which means circulation. This is the taoist neidan ideal. The "heart flame" by stillness in practice sinks down to the lower dantian, which traditionally symbolized by a picture of a stove. The fire sinks below the water, creating steam.

5 elements, bagua, 64 hexagram, they are all linked together.
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:12 pm

Bao wrote:In Chinese tradition, the five elements represents change which gives rise to the eight directions or trigrams. The circle represents creation, the creative cycle. Destruction, or the destructive cycle is represented by the pentagram, so it's basically the same thing. ;)


Image


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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby Kelley Graham on Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:26 am

For me, the wu-xing five elements are what a person directly experiences with enough quality practice. A practical, functional, visceral cosmological link to all the rest of the theory. The elements are direct, non abstract sensations, linked to organs. My speculation is that the internal visceral experiences came first, as a shamanic pre-historical foundation. The rest of the cosmology, from a neijia point of view, is hung on this core shared subjectivity.
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby AL2016 on Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:11 am

OK thanks
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:47 am

I guess I am just too low level to appreciate the experiential organ relations of the 5 element fists - lol ;D

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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby meeks on Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:16 pm

AL2016 wrote:Hi

Sometimes bagua circle and use of trigramme remind me magical circle to call a devil and using it

Here the astaroth (devil) sceau

https://www.google.com/search?q=sceau+d ... ovl1sFYphM

What do you think?

Thanks

first:
I think if you're seeing devil symbols in anything with a circle you have other issues that need to be addressed, and kungfu ain't it.

second:
Astaroth (aka Estarte, Esther, Easter, Aset in other cultures ) is the Goddess of Love and Fertility. The Lutherans did a good job of demonizing deities from other cultures when they translated (and 'Christianized) many of the ancient grimoires. Suddenly, she became he, and rides a vile beast, bla bla bla,
Ever wonder where the Easter Bunny came from? Go back into Christian practises only a few hundred years and they still celebrated the tradition of honoring the Goddess named Easter
(love and fertility). Her symbols of fertility - Eggs and Bunnies. So the Lutherans created the Easter Bunny, overlayed the celebration of the Christ lore over it, and give it a couple generations and the origin is all but forgotten. Ever wonder why Easter is celebrated on the first Sunday after the full moon rather than on a specific date? Because that's how they tracked the celebration of the return of Spring, when animals came out of hibernation, their nuts dropped down for propagating, and animals began to mate with each other again... love and fertility.

So on the upshot, she's not the devil and you're not in as bad of shape is you may be putting it forward as. Now stop trolling the bagua guys... :D
"The power of Christ compels you!" *spank*
now with ADDED SMOOTHOSITY! ;D
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Re: Link between bagua 's circle and magical circle

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:13 am

The Chinese Taoist philosophy regarding the Bipolar Energies (Yin/Yang), the Five Element Phases (Wu Xing), the Eight Trigrams (Bagua), etc, are all sufficiently difficult enough to truly understand as independent concepts and principles, without diluting the blend with other outside perspectives on symbolic interpretation of meaning. :o

Oftentimes, in order to really understand something, it is necessary to let go of preconceived ideas and personal biases about it. ;)
Last edited by Doc Stier on Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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