Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bao on Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:52 am

Walk the Torque wrote:So the saying goes Hsing Yi like a ball of iron, Tai Ji like a ball of rubber and Bagua Like a ball of Wire


It is said that Xingyi keeps the middle/center straight (or rather centered in one spot), Bagua keep the middle/center changing, and Taiji keep the middle/center empty. So far I can agree with a generalization of these three arts, at least if we speak about an ideal or a general idea.

I also do agree with that the body is shaped differently and that stylists from different arts feel different. You become what you practice. However, different schools and lineages of the “big three internal arts” focus on different things and practice differently, so they will develop differently. All of the Tai chi, Xingyi and Bagua practitioners I’ve met have all felt differently. Some Taiji people feel heavy, some light, some people you will hardly feel at all and it’s like stumbling in air. And yet others, when you press against their limb or body, it feels like going against a wall. Some Bagua people are very compact and connected, others feel very loose and agile. Haven’t met many Xingyi practitioners or teachers, but yes they can feel hard and solid in their movements, even though they are relaxed.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Kelley Graham on Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:30 pm

Wrist trigger
Waist trigger
Foot trigger
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:13 pm

wingchun wrote:"In the old days, Xing-yi, Taichi and Bagua were one art (same family). it says, Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs"

I can understand what this means in regards to the skillsets of "Xing-yi hands and Taichi waist", but can anyone explain what the Bagua legs skillset entails?


Talks about the type of power developed related to each style.
What makes a practice live or dead .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7fgqyyo8i0
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:25 am

windwalker wrote:

After these many years, I don't understand why people still interest in pushing. IMO, if one doesn't train in the fist flying environment, he is not truly training the MA.

The striking art and wrestling art integration is not that easy to achieve.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:45 pm



These kids look better.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:06 pm

johnwang wrote:After these many years, I don't understand why people still interest in pushing. IMO, if one doesn't train in the fist flying environment, he is not truly training the MA.

The striking art and wrestling art integration is not that easy to achieve.



As to why some focus on this method of training.
It makes it easier to identify, develop, and train the different types of energies.

For other methods that are more technique oriented, with very little training one can use "inherent" natural energy they'er bone with combining knowledge and understanding gained through training and application of technique.


One method focuses on developing a unique energy, one that allows for a different approach based on the energies developed.
The other method focuses on enhancing the energy that one already has, integrating it making it more efficient in use.


Whether one agrees with the clip or not it does present some interesting details that help to explain or clarify the rational for methodologies used.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwks7rlYgKo
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bhassler on Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:50 pm

windwalker wrote:Whether one agrees with the clip or not it does present some interesting details that help to explain or clarify the rational for methodologies used.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwks7rlYgKo


Not really. He's changing the power delivery method and conflating the results with (sort of) changing the power generation method. He could take the same position that he attributes to "internal" and do either method of power generation he shows with basically the same results. The real issue is he (apparently) doesn't understand how to maintain structure out to the end of his limbs while moving.

Since he's working from false assumptions about what's happening in his different modes of operation, he comes to false conclusions about why his various systems are structured the way they are.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:17 pm

Bhassler wrote:
Not really. He's changing the power delivery method and conflating the results with (sort of) changing the power generation method.

He could take the same position that he attributes to "internal" and do either method of power generation he shows with basically the same results. The real issue is he (apparently) doesn't understand how to maintain structure out to the end of his limbs while moving.

Since he's working from false assumptions about what's happening in his different modes of operation, he comes to false conclusions about why his various systems are structured the way they are.


opinion

The real issue is he (apparently) doesn't understand how to maintain structure out to the end of his limbs while moving.



Interesting considering he outlined his method, which some may not agree with.


I would say they understand quite clearly how to maintain structure, as they've mentioned, outlined a different out look based on
the principles they promote and practice with.

Should anyone have issues, might be interesting to comment on the clip in utube, and see what the response is...they seem to be pretty open
and accessible.


windwalker wrote:
Whether one agrees with the clip or not it does present some interesting details that help to explain or clarify the rational for methodologies used.


this teacher also talks about the same things.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDP3sfJCuI&t=5s
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:39 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby LDShouler on Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:12 pm

Almost everything that people who heartily adhere to various doctrines in IMA pronounce as 'the REAL way' is an opinion...real proof (i.e. tested/scientific) has little credence in our egocentric normative-based community.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:54 pm

LDShouler wrote:Almost everything that people who heartily adhere to various doctrines in IMA pronounce as 'the REAL way' is an opinion...real proof (i.e. tested/scientific) has little credence in our egocentric normative-based community.

Except for individual demonstrations of knowledge and skills which validate the acquired benefits of their personal training regimens. Such examples represent more than mere opinions. ;)
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby dspyrido on Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:22 pm



"Modern" way in reference to something that has evidence of 1000s of years old? Incorrect.

"Modern" uses a chain vs internal using weight? Looking at any examples of drop step in boxing or just look at any Tyson video too see weight being used.

Joint control breaks the chain but not so in ima strike? Pretty confident if his knee was covered with a weighty palm he would struggle to launch. If a boxer wishes to put weight on then they do a similar thing - step with the punch.

He is correct when he says the use of the body weight being a big part of the training. It's from the start & taught as the harmonies. All good IMAs have some of this and start from this position to develop it out. This has to be the unifying philosophy across all of them because of the tactics that flow such as deflection, use of 7 stars, short power, qinna & throws means many of their applications cross over in a 3 way venn diagram.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Taste of Death on Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:53 pm

dspyrido wrote:Joint control breaks the chain but not so in ima strike? Pretty confident if his knee was covered with a weighty palm he would struggle to launch. If a boxer wishes to put weight on then they do a similar thing - step with the punch.


Mocabu stepping, leading with the knee can counter the weighty palm or foot. If trying to move by lifting the foot it will fail.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby dspyrido on Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:14 pm

Taste of Death wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Joint control breaks the chain but not so in ima strike? Pretty confident if his knee was covered with a weighty palm he would struggle to launch. If a boxer wishes to put weight on then they do a similar thing - step with the punch.


Mocabu stepping, leading with the knee can counter the weighty palm or foot. If trying to move by lifting the foot it will fail.


Yes there are many methods for using the legs to drive through & deflect a single dimensional force but it's not on the same level as the video presents. This is about launching a punch without redirection of the palm. It will have the same impediment.

As a counter example it's like putting the palm on the knee of the boxer who then just hops back and hops in again at an angle with a cross. The palm won't stop anything.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bhassler on Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:43 am

windwalker wrote:I would say they understand quite clearly how to maintain structure, as they've mentioned, outlined a different out look based on
the principles they promote and practice with.


This is an example of what I'm talking about when I say they don't know how to maintain structure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvvIS1EDQYI

Hotton is using the same fundamental kinetic chain in both methods that he shows, the only thing that changes is how he's connecting the arm to the body. If someone wanted to talk about different "engines" for power generation, then they should keep the tool/delivery mechanism the same, and only change the body method in order to provide a clear and accurate comparison.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby yeniseri on Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:22 pm

Bao wrote:I don’t believe that either Tyrey or Cartmell even knew what Hao style looks like when they wrote that. Virtually everything people claim comes from XY or BG is already there in the Hao form.

Hao
https://youtu.be/BPvAFPD8x4E

Sun
https://youtu.be/3AuGupAIUds


What Sun Lutang says is:

“... the three arts of Xingyi Boxing, Bagua Boxing, and Taiji Boxing merged to become a single essence. This single essence is yet separated into the three distinct systems. The postures of the three systems are different, but their principles are the same.“

He never said that he mixed BG or XY into his TJ, but that he found the same essence in all of them and uses the same principles for all of them. BG still remains BG. XY still remains XY. And TJ still remains TJ, which also means that his TJ is not a mix of the three arts.

These objective criteria are well known and are as follows:
1. Sun Lutang learned learned/incorporated/acquired, etc Hao style, which is actually Wu style (Yuxiang-derivation!) into what we know today as Sun style (Lutang)
2. Sun did not spend years with Hao style but he did train xingi and paquaquan since that was the tendency of the day.
3. Sun Lutuang found that because of his age, taijiquan was the reflection of that experience (NOTE: Providing one did the gong (of 10,000 repetitions and more-i.e. physical conditioning associated with skill and its components)
4. Xingyi of the day (its appearance) had more elemenets of neigong and that served as the ground and path of Sun Lutang's taijiquan development. Hu Yaozhen was a main exponent and he was responsible formany adopting this xingyi neigong training!
5. I recall from PA Kua magazine (you guys can look it up) that Sun Lutang, already skilled in Xingyi, only incorporated pakua since it had an infinite variety of application and he was grounded in zhuangfa (standing postures!) so that MAY be seen as an extension (at least for me) of the neigong training of Xingyi in that era.

The xingyi hands, taijiwaist and Baqua leg(s) position is apropos for many CMA. One can even see/visualize combinations like wingchun hands and legs and baqua waist (per the turning in initiating postural deviations per application! Just saying ;D

I will post a video of something someone sent me and it was basically baquazhang conditioning and application for taijiquan using shuai (throwing!) elements in scenario developing.
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