Taiji Resonance

[Bao]

some of my experience

When we touched hands both of us did not move, able to sense each others movements inside.
Understanding this, we both laughed and broke contact.

His students quite surprised and mystified as to what happened when there was no outer movement

Have had similar experiences. Maybe not completely not moving, but with so small movements so it looked like we were hardly moving at all.

Against a couple of friends who are very good I've had a strange feeling, very hard to describe. But when we play, we are so light so it feels sort of like moving through clouds, or like in winds. And it's like my arms had disappeared and there's only "qi" moving. Bad choice of words, but it's really hard to describe it. Both must be very light and sensitive.

[origami_itto]

So the initial push is not a COMMITED push, but maybe it comes after a couple of committed pushes in that direction to train them to respond with that stiffness. Then your trap "half push" to set up the response that you commandeer for the throw.

Going further I think that this second technique is at the heart of the "controlling jin" of taijiquan in a full conflict situation.

It's okay to play with a beginner like this, or against someone who is too hard and not sensitive. A good player won't fall for it, or won't even let you come close to try it. Against a non-taiji player it's unnecessary to add pressure to withdraw. If they have no developed balance, you should be able to cut their root instantly.

And if it doesn't work the bandits will overrun the village and I'll never represent my school at regionals.

That's why I only play with people worse than me.

I am not sure what you mean with controlling Jin. Shouldn't ting and hua be enough to control with?

By controlling Jin I mean Taijiquan embodied as "complete mastery over your opponent". Ting sure, hua sure, and peng lu ji an na etc.

If it were "just this" or "just that" you'd think they wouldn't bother with the rest of it.

[Doc Stier]

My ongoing personal goal is always to achieve complete mastery of my own mind and body through my practice, rather than training primarily for the ability to completely dominate an opponent. I learned long ago that I couldn't control an opponent's body and movements without first aquiring and maintaining complete control over my own. ymmv

[Steve James]

Suntzi

[origami_itto]

I learned long ago that I couldn't control an opponent's body and movements without first aquiring and maintaining complete control over my own. ymmv

As certainly as socks before shoes.

But it's all relative. You don't need to be capable of extreme feats of prana bindu nerve control and psychic magic tricks to turn an attacker into a puppet if they're a tense, disorganized mess in comparison. YMMV.

[Doc Stier]

You don't need to be capable of extreme feats of prana bindu nerve control and psychic magic tricks to turn an attacker into a puppet if they're a tense, disorganized mess in comparison. YMMV.

True enough, but every realtime, serious street fighting situation will inevitably include unexpected 'X Factors'. Foremost among such possibilities is the inability to predict an unknown opponent's fighting skill, his preferred methods and techniques, or his previous fighting experience. Thus, there is no guarantee that any given adversary will be a "tense, disorganized mess", which would allow you to be a puppet master. Just saying.

[origami_itto]

You don't need to be capable of extreme feats of prana bindu nerve control and psychic magic tricks to turn an attacker into a puppet if they're a tense, disorganized mess in comparison. YMMV.

True enough, but every realtime, serious street fighting situation will inevitably include unexpected 'X Factors'. Foremost among such possibilities is the inability to predict an unknown opponent's fighting skill, his preferred methods and techniques, or his previous fighting experience. Thus, there is no guarantee that any given adversary will be a "tense, disorganized mess", which would allow you to be a puppet master. Just saying.

Well that's why I only fight people who are worse than me, duh.

[yeniseri]

From my limited understanding, all CMA has been about "sticking" i.e. maintaining contact with the opponent, allowing for, and with strategies to overturn, trounce, throw down and defeat the opponent
The Taiji Resonance (of which I am not familiar in that context) at first look at the word, relates to TCM references (again, my limited view and experience) with pulse wave velocity (PWV-there are some references to taijiquan and qigong in the health/medical/fitness domain) use of 'resonance' implies other than martial descriptive(s).

Being small minded, I don't see entering, trapping, redirection, throwing, or even penglujian, etc as resonance though in a philosophical way, there is a sliver of something in it.
My best reference of this Taiji Resonance has been with Wu style (Jianquan!) and those who exhibit the variations of what , I guess, can be resonance of an interesting type that is elusive (for my simpleton point of view) because of my inability to find representatives of said resonance.

[origami_itto]

And sticking and following as another tool in their tool box.
And, sticking & listening can make smashing them in the face even easier.

To stick, listen, yield, follow is one approach. To shake your opponent and interrupt his movement is another approach.

When your opponent swings

- toward you, if you give him a push,
- away from you, if you give him a pull,

you can interrupt that swing.

I don't understand why IMA does not address this method - "shaking".

Why do you want to shake your opponent? You don't want him to generate speed and power during the initial stage. When you throw a right punch at me, if I can push on your right shoulder, even 4 oz force can stop your punch.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Going back and re-reading it, it's similar to what I'm talking about. I'd argue that the ability to successfully "shake" or interrupt is built on listening, and stick-adhere-join-follow. But not just interrupting a punch, making contact and sticking and interrupting any effort to organize their frame. The instability gives them no choice but to try to lean on you for support. At which point that puppet-master control is achieved and you can guide them where you want.

Where you go there depends on your goal in the conflict, I guess. This is a prime skill if you're trying to break up a fight and escort someone hundreds of feet through a crowd off of the property with as little collateral damage and exposure to legal liability as possible. Keep them moving and off balance, run them into a wall, put them on the floor, whatever. From the approaches to taijiquan that I've most frequently seen I don't think many people get to the footwork that really unlocks this skillset. Need at least the Da Lu. The apparently all-but-lost two-person yang form maybe. Freestyle moving step push hands, definitely. Bagua is probably a quicker route though in all honesty, I mean it's right there in the mother palms.

And damn but if between knee surgery and COVID I haven't played push hands since November 2019. This is an outrage.

[Giles]

... Keep them moving and off balance, run them into a wall, put them on the floor, whatever. From the approaches to taijiquan that I've most frequently seen I don't think many people get to the footwork that really unlocks this skillset. Need at least the Da Lu. The apparently all-but-lost two-person yang form maybe. Freestyle moving step push hands, definitely....

Yes, indeed. Also including (by mutual consent, of course, and being careful with each other) the option of throws and locks, and then also strikes. So you know whether you're twisting yourself up with incorrect stepping, or staying free in all directions.

For me, steps in freestyle tai chi should as much as possible emerge almost 'by themselves' from the work with the kua and waist, the sinking and turning, which are emphasized and practiced in fixed-step push hands. Or which should be practiced, at least. Then, stepping to create space for yourself or to provide additional neutralization doesn't turn into retreat; stepping into the opponent's space to do whatever you need/want to do doesn't turn into throwing yourself against the opponent.

And damn but if between knee surgery and COVID I haven't played push hands since November 2019. This is an outrage.

That's a lot of cold turkey . I hope your knee recovers enough and Covid eventually subsides enough for you to play again soon.
I've been very lucky over the last year or so: two good training partners living close by. Meeting regularly in the park, in T-shirts or wrapped up warm. And always with masks until we all got our jabs.

Sorry if this is getting OT...

[windwalker]

I wonder for those supporting the use of shaking as an application,
understand it’s a form of resonance.

For others understanding resonance as applied to Taiji.
The understanding itself allows them to know why using shaking as a technique is not a good idea.

[Doc Stier]

I wonder for those supporting the use of shaking as an application,
understand it’s a form of resonance.

For others understanding resonance as applied to Taiji.
The understanding itself allows them to know why using shaking as a technique is not a good idea.

That's an interesting perspective. Please elaborate.

[origami_itto]

I wonder for those supporting the use of shaking as an application,
understand it’s a form of resonance.

For others understanding resonance as applied to Taiji.
The understanding itself allows them to know why using shaking as a technique is not a good idea.

What are you calling "shaking" here?

And damn but if between knee surgery and COVID I haven't played push hands since November 2019. This is an outrage.

That's a lot of cold turkey . I hope your knee recovers enough and Covid eventually subsides enough for you to play again soon.
I've been very lucky over the last year or so: two good training partners living close by. Meeting regularly in the park, in T-shirts or wrapped up warm. And always with masks until we all got our jabs.

Thanks for the well wishes. The knee is doing very well. They took a dead man's hamstring, soaked it in stem cells, and made me a new ACL. It's as good as new according to the scientists. Was about six months before it stopped hurting climbing the stairs. I relocated from Austin, TX to Palm Bay, FL during the pandemic so have lost touch with a vibrant network of push hands players. The folks I know of here in state definitely seem like the YOLO types to risk meeting up, but are like two hours away. Oh well. If you will it is no dream, dude.

[windwalker]

I wonder for those supporting the use of shaking as an application,
understand it’s a form of resonance.

For others understanding resonance as applied to Taiji.
The understanding itself allows them to know why using shaking as a technique is not a good idea.

What are you calling "shaking" here?
.

I don't understand why IMA does not address this method - "shaking".

Why do you want to shake your opponent? You don't want him to generate speed and power during the initial stage. When you throw a right punch at me, if I can push on your right shoulder, even 4 oz force can stop your punch.

[johnwang]

What's the difference between yield and shake?

When you

- yield, your opponent can borrow your yielding force.
- shake, your opponent can't borrow your shaking force.